Hi Guys

I'm going to get a Aurion Prodigy within a few months. I've heard about LPG for a while and I haven't really thought about it, but since I getting a new car I was wondering if it's worthwhile changing it to LPG?

And if anyone have taken the step in changing to LPG on an Aurion, can they can put up a few pictures of it. I do travel alot and I require boot space for equpiment for work (mainly boxes of stuff)

I've been reading alot of good stuff about it, can anyone tell me the disadvantage of LPG?

Thanks
Andrew

well for starters its good if you wanna save some money on fuel. but the disadvantages are also big. it reduces the life span of your engine. it also reduces a very big and noticable amount of power from the engine output. and it will also loose responsiveness. for example look at the taxi's. when they turn off the engine and want to restart it they have to crank the engine for a while before it starts up. now you need to compare the advantages and disadvantages and decide. but i certaintly woudnt do it. not even to a fuel munching commodore ss

Hi Sinan

Thanks for the reply. I thought it would reduce power, I've been reading on the LPG website which claims to increase the power output!! I was wondering where did you get information on reduce life span of an engine? Is it a known thing in the motor industry? I would like to know how much life it actually reduce? (does it half the life of the car?)

Thanks again
Andrew

well i cant give you an exact number on how many years it will reduce its like but expect it to reduce. and for the power output were ever your getting your information from its not true. if that was the true case everyone would put gas on there cars. save money and more power. for example look at the police highway petrols. they have there normal BA falcons on gas but for highway patrols they use petrol for more power.

Why LPG?

What is the attraction? How much do you spend on petrol a year? $3,000, $4,000? How much would a conversion cost?

How much would you pay on LPG a year? $1,000 $2,000? What happens when they add excise tax to LPG?

The economics of it are not favourable unless you do huge miles every year or keep the car for 10 years.

If you want an LPG car buy one. Ford and Holden will gladl take your money.

Hi guys

Thanks for the reply sinan. It makes alot of sense. I got my information here:

http://lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?action=...=109&Type=R

"Mr Coventry said the system produced a five per cent power improvement over conventional air valve and venturi LPG systems and a 50 per cent reduction in operating costs compared with petrol."

I'm not sure if I read the statement wrong, I had to admit I'm a newbie when it comes to cars.

Jonbays, I'm only curious with LPG because my mate told me to look into it, which I'm doing now, since I'm going to buy a new car for my business. As I explain previously, I do travel alot and require alot of space. Most of the information I have found dates back in 2000 and I wasn't sure if technology has changed within 7 years.

The conversion cost is $4400 and the govt will rebate $1000 since it's factory fitted.

I do not know how much LPG I would be using, though currently I'm spending over $100/week so I guess over $5200/year on petrol.

I understand the govt will add taxes to gas that's in 2015 from memory, why not take advantage of it now? Petrol has taxes put on it, that doesn't stop people using it.

I prefer not to get holden or ford, as I have set my heart on the toyota Aurion.

I mean, if LPG is getting alot attention because it's so great. It would be silly of me not to look into it, wouldn't it?

Andrew

The Aurion will produce less power on LPG than ULP. You can expect it to produce 10% less peak rear wheel kilowatts. Low quality old style mixer conversion will lose heaps more. Not that this would be a worry with the Aurion with 3.5 litres and plenty of power anyway but the top end power will suffer.

Econmy wise if you spend $100 a week on petrol and average say 12l/100 in the Aurion which you should you would be doing 35,000km a year costing $5,500 in ULP well today at $1.30 a litre and as we know this is going up and up and sometimes down.

With ULP because it has less energy density you will only get maybe 16L/100Km and the same 35,000km will cost $3,000 at an avearge $0.54/L at the moment on average. This too will go up though as taxes will increase to similar levels as petrol.

So in a perfect world payback in an Aurion doing 35,000km a year and doing badly on ULP getting only 12L/100KM versus one on LPG doing well and getting 16L/100Km is around 18months. So you would be even in two years. Of course if you were only doing 17,500km a year then the payback would be 36 months and so on.

All sounds good if you believe you will keep the car for over two years and the resale value remains the same. In some cars (mostly gas guzzling old V8's) the resale will improve but mostly it is worse than a standard car. It will go slower and produce less power but torque may be better and driveablity is 100% due to the competence of the conversion company to match toyota's development! it could be good or bad you just need to find out how many happy V6 Toyota customers they have on LPG.

For me it doesn't add up. The real running costs differences between LPG & ULP are tax related in the main and thats the hard one to predict. See if you can drive a converted Aurion before doing it too. i remember when ford brought out the AU they had a dedicated LPG version. I drove two wagons 1 LPG and 1 ULP and in 2000 the technology wasn't there for LPG it was a miserable poor cousin to drive in comparison.

shortening the engine life + less at least 10% power + ugly boot + ugly hole for LPG + destroying yr pretty car, i still go for petrol.
just for saving petrol, no, i wont go for it. even if install cost just around $3k and depending on yr driving frequences, usually there WILL be a payback time, around 2-4 yrs?

If you wanted to save 30% in petrol costs prob better off buying the new corolla. Cheaper, better resale and its as big as the old camry........

fuel cost is such a small overall cost compared with the bigger depreciation and fixed insurance and rego costs that it doesn't make sens to focus on it that much. if you want to save the world ride a push bike drive a Prius do something positive. converting a fairly large sedan with a 3.5L V6 to run on LPG isn't doing much for anything. Cetainly I won't bother till they bring out the pluggable diesel electric hybrids in the next 10 years or so. thats my bet for the future anyway for now its the Aurion reasonably big fast and not too bad on fuel.

If you’re going to convert a 2GR engine to LPG you should consider using an upper cylinder lubricant to help prevent valve seat wear - particularly because that engine isn’t designed for LPG.
Such as... www.trubluoil.com.au/UCL.html (I have no affiliation)
UCL improves fuel economy in normal petrol cars too - and helps prevent carbon build up in the top end.

LPG is much kinder to cylinder walls, engine oil and the bottom end of an engine - so no worries there.

Hi Jons

Thanks for your reply. I was wondering why you were asking for the figures. It makes sense what you're saying. I'll probably opt not to have LPG. I'm thinking only to keep the car for three - four years so after going through your calculations it's really not worthwhile to save a few hundred.

I have used a Prius before and it sucks power wise and boot space wise. It's been years since i rode a push bike and with the amount of equipment I'm carrying I might as well carry the bike on my back I'll probably move faster.

perthcamry, I have a corolla now and it's a great car I want a change of scenery.

Thanks again everyone that answered.

Andrew

Nothing against Prius at all my sister (a greenie!) has one they are OK but not for me yet. But i am also a keen cyclist still. with QR wheels the bike fits in the boot just. You do wish for fold down rear seats though like a hatch sometimes

Some information on LPG

- Operates at a much higher temperature than Unleaded, may experience burnt valve seats, and reduces engine life.
- Harder to trade back in - valuers/used car managers do not like LPG conversions as they do not know how much damage has ben done to the engine.
- Toyota will NOT warrant the engine or any components related to the conversion.
- You cannot run the vehicle soley on LPG, a typical combination is 1 tank petrol 2 tanks gas.
- LPG is NOT available at all service stations - not very convienient if you are on the road all the time.
- Dual VVTi and LPG don't like each other.
- Takes space away from the boot as you have a giant gas tank in the back.
- Gas tank needs to inspected every few years for leaks and pressure, costs money.

There is more but I can't think of it at the moment...

Hope it helps Andrew.

hrm, now even this salesperson says NO to LPG~ then for sure, i myself wont go for tat

Hi Melvin

Thanks for the response, Can I bring your attention to web article http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...5010760,00.html ? What you're saying and what they are saying are vey different. I find it very confusing and hopefully you can clarify it for me. My friend is set on get LPG.


Thanks mate
Andrew

of course they will endorse it, it was a cover story for the lpg company.
like everyone said, if you want to save fuel buy a diesel or those ghastly hybrids. or even better switch to a corolla.

Only gas id put into my car is the gas out of my ***** into the seats.

Otherwise not worth it mate

Cheers and i hope that helps

I wouldn't touch gas either. For the savings offered in ongoing fuel costs compared to the upfront cost, premature valve seal wear, higher maintenance (services) and the lower power output it simply is uneconomical to consider this option. Seriously, how many litres of unleaded fuel would you be able to buy to offset the cost of the gas installation? It would probably take 2 or more years to pay the investment back and during this time you would of emptied your wallet even more for the additional cost to service the car. Just not worth it in my opinion unless your a courier or taxi.

Hi Andrew.
As the other respondents to this thread have pointed out , there are major downsides to going dual fuel.
Surely one of the Aurions major pluses is the cavernous boot and the storage area in it. After the installation of a but ugly gas tank this would be reduced considerably, probably by at least 50%.

I suppose it really comes down to the type of car you want to drive. You mentioned that you currently drive a Carola but that the Aurion appealed to you.
Obviously the Aurion will never compete with the Carola regarding fuel consumption but hey, the Aurion is a great car, it does many things very well including class leading fuel economy. If you are not content with that then you are probably considering the wrong car.

Regards
Quark

In fact the Corolla has pretty average fueld consumption ive heard people saying on a normal driving conditions it gets upto 9ltr/100, which is getting to a big car anwyays, if your wholy into the fuel consumption things then opt for a diesel,

I believe that thanks to the higher running temperature it also reduces the life of the exhaust system. When I had an LPG Fairmont, I had to keep changing the exhaust every 2-3 years. Also had a lot of problems with the fuel injectors which used to cost about $500 to service and clean. Whatever cost saving was gained by the cheaper fuel was blown away by such maintenance costs. Perhaps if I drove on petrol more often the injectors wouldn't have been a problem, so you must consider that in the fuel comparison calculations as a must rather than a recommendation... 1 tank petrol 2 tanks gas (as mentioned above). The higher running temperature would obviously also reduce life of cooling system hoses, belts, etc. I most definitely had LESS power on LPG. It was notable. Consumption was also higher on LPG, probably by about 30-40%. Fueling time increases as well, took a lot longer to fill a gas tank than a petrol tank.

... the only thing that gets me is if LPG is so bad for the engine, why are there so many TAXIs that have driven more than 1,000,000 kms on LPG and still going? Is that perhaps thanks to the FORD engine? Not a great engine, but seems to take LPG in its stride?

Hello Andrew. You may have heard a lot and read many things about LPG and whether it will be any good for your Aurion. I am the right person to speak to because I have done over 3 months of research via the internet and speaking to different installers. These are the very hard facts:

1. You will not lose any power at all.
2. There is no increase on engine wear (in fact, LPG will increase engine life).
3. With the current prices, the savings on fuel is 50% over petrol.
4. Your engine will not backfire (that happened with old technology)
5. You will be extremely happy with this fuel (I had my HSV Commodore on LPG 10 years ago and it was great). With this new system it will even be better.

Dont hesitate if you really want it. Dont listen to too many people and take very little notice of what is posted on the internet (I gues that means me). I have a saying, 'Dont believe what you hear and only believe half what you see.'

I have done all my homework for the Aurion. Dont bother with what Toyota might say because they would rather have you buy their Prius if you want to save money. As a matter of fact, when you speak to any one of them, they all seem to have a different opinion about LPG.

Be sure you pick the right installer. I went and checked out a few places and I decided to go with this particular one because of the following reasons:

1. Professional looking workshop
2. Manager was very knowledgeable and answered all the weird questions

Good luck. I will give you my mobile if you wish to discuss this via phone.

George

Where did you research this information? Some of those points defy the logic of physics...

1. LPG will cause a power and efficiency loss due to the lower density of the gas. LPG has a higher octane rating, which compensates for the lighter density and brings performance to a comparable point to petrol. The loss of efficiency still exists however and means that in a car that would typically make 10L/100km of petrol, will be closer to 15L/100k running on gas. This is going to be the case with comparing ANY gaseous fuel to a liquid fuel and is a scientific fact that cannot be debated.

2. Engine wear - this is a point to be argued. UNLESS additives are used in the gas to provide additional lubrication of which gas by itself lacks, valve seat wear WILL INCREASE. There is negligible impact to cylinder walls and rings. However, this may be compensated IF the engine is designed to run with gas (the Aurion is NOT designed to run with gas), which in that case will have compatible alloys and internal designs to be able to handle the significant reduction in lubrication. If you wander around wreckers and take a look at almost any car that has a gas system, you will find that the head is not in very good condition and will require either valve seat replacement and/or entire valve replacement. LPG does not have any lubrication at all by itself.

3. This is true for the most part, but is quickly compensated by the fact that additional tuning and maintenance is required in order to ensure the gas system is safe. This includes regular checks of emergency cutoff valves and testing of all fittings to ensure there are no leaks. In older systems that used an air intake mixer - this would also include replacement of diaphragm parts at regular intervals to ensure correct mixture. This is not the case with injection systems, although they must still be tuned on occasion to compensate for any variances introduced by various qualities of gas. Also note - the government has plans in the very near future to introduce additional excise tax to gas (approximately 60c/l has been suggested!), which will very, very quickly make any additional gains very minimal.

4. Yes this is true - only the old-style mixer systems had this issue due to incorrect mixtures from lack of tuning. Injected systems do not have this issue as an ECU is used.

Do not believe everything gas fitters say, as they are all out there trying to make an easy sale!

George...

Find me a customer who has fitted a Gas system on their Aurion. I agree with Dave, Im sceptical on installers claiming its all good,

There is only 1 word in my mind to explain what George A said.. "SCARY"
I dont wan to argue about all what you said about getting Gas conversion, as i have NOT actually get it done on mine..
BUT there is 2 things i gotta sayy..
1. Dont bother what Toyota says? WTF? They are the one who will approve or deny any mod that effect your warranty. Gas conversion is 100% end of warranty. Ok, what if ACCIDENTALLY, 1 out of 10000 chances your car has engine issue, DEAD. WHO will be responsible??!! You?
Suggestion: dont suggest something to people that you might regret and sorry for.. as through interest we can say any shxt we want..
(I am not saying all toyota says is good, coz i hate some of them too)

2. bout the final part, how are you soooo sure HE is the right installer? Your car(aurion) has been done and tested for 50,000km or more? Unless you own that shop?
Suggestion: none

Sorry if i offended by any way, just some thing that came in my mind. Thzz

I believe anyone who wants to do LPG conversion needs to find information LATER THAN 2006. Since the late SVI and the coming up liquid injection systems are another class than the old mixers. so that's why people have two extremes in opinion depends on what system you are talking about.
the new liquid injection is claiming a better performance and higher fuel economy than ULP. however i'll only come out 6~9months later. The SVI system is also claiming to have reduced the power/fuel economy to the minimum compared to ULP.
so I would recommend LPG to someone who really wants to save $$ on fuel. However, a good installer is EXTREMELY important to save future hassle.

Any more info on the Liquid Injection Systems?
I am looking at having my Kluger converted but if something better is coming soon it could be worth the wait.

Thanks

sure. http://www.lpgli.com/ is their official website. supplier is in melb.

and the quote is from my e-mail conversation with the developer from lpgli.com

"It will be 4-6 months before the kits are finally ready. Injectors are still giving us problems which we are overcoming.
When the kits are ready they will be distributed through all the licensed convertors."

Cheers

Thanks AF35...

Jezz that name is all so familiar...

Liquid injection systems do have significant advantages over the standard mixer systems, and it will definitely be interesting to see how the performance and economy turns out using the system mentioned above.

As many of you will be aware, the concept of injection involves vaporising a liquid through a microscopic nozzle at high pressure, and is the same regardless whether it is gas or petrol injection. LPG in compressed form is actually a liquid so may therefore operate comparatively to petrol when injected. However, both fuels have different properties after leaving the injector nozzle, which I suspect is where the delays are with the aforementioned group.

Comparing the systems, the old mixer-style systems are very similar to that of a carburettor in that a jet sprays fuel which is mixed with air going through the intake. It relies on low pressure gas flow effectively "floating" through the intake and is very inaccurate and unreliable, and poorly tuned; unstable. This system I would personally not recommend in any car that supports fuel injection as it is initially cheap, but is of high maintenance and poor reliability. Fuel injected cars where possible (and economical) an injected gas system is a much better choice.

With these points in mind, there are far fewer disadvantages present with an injected system as opposed to the mixer-style systems. You MUST be aware however, that it is still a LPG system, and therefore still presents the same risk to the valves and heads. An interesting point to note however, is that the life of the engine may potentially be longer than mixer systems due to the more precise fuel control, although only time and testing will answer this one. Engines running off any form of LPG will still unlikely last as long as an engine running off petrol.

If you are really keen on converting to gas, definitely look into the injected gas systems and let us know how it goes!

Hello,

I had my Aurion fitted up with GAS. The car runs perfect with no loss of power and the running costs are 50% to that of petrol. I would not have had my car converted to LPG if it wasnt for this new injection system where you dont lose power. I spent 3 months researching LPG for the Aurion and I found the right installer (that is very important). Some people on the forum have said Toyota dont recommend LPG for the Aurion motor. News announcements last week indicated taxis going to the aurion with lpg so that cant be right. Also, Toyota had helped develop the LPG system for the Aurion but Toyota would rather have you buying the Prius; they dont make any money if you convert your car.

The gas tank is not so big so its not too bad on space. This is what my fuel costed me, so far, in heavy city driving:

1. 290km $33 @ 64.9c/l
2. 240km $23 @ 64.9/l (with 4c discount per litre)

Not bad, eh! I dont mind visiting the servos anymore.

I am not really worried about the debate 'to convert or not to convert'. I am happy with the conversion.

What is the capacity of the gas tank? Do you have to refill every 300kms?

Do you have a switch to run between either ULP or LPG, or is it LPG only?

Ahh, how much all up, and where did you go for the conversion?

how big is the tank? in the boot?

The only tank I've seen is about 25% of the large sedan boot.
My friends's dad went with LPG. It was a van though.
So no boot space issue there lol.

We see two extremes. Just who can we trust. Can you trust the guys trying to sell us LPG converters?
Post-2006 technology? Are there enough numbers for concrete feedback?

The savings are enticing, if it doesn't wear your car or kill your trade-in.
But if I was to go LPG I'll go with an engine designed for it.
(Ok I've been hit by the 2009 Hyundai Hybrid-LPG hype.)

With the diesel-petrol price gap reversed, hybrid seems the most promising to me.
We know where traffic conditions are heading, at least for Sydney.

Hybrid Camry. 2.4L large car with power of 3.0L. Economy of a Corolla. Silent city cruiser. Increased range. Sounds almost too good.
With "estimated" 60,000 sales you can probably get some real research on it.

Toyota Aurion is no good for LPG.
My Sportivo Aurion 2008 model is on LPG. After about 3,000 km on the road it now has many problems. Toyota wont help & sent me to the LPG converter. He rechecked every thing & found nothing abnormal in the conversion.

The car problems are: VSC (anti-skid system) not working (see Aurion manual page 9: 128/129: System Failure Warning). Traction Control System fails (see: the page 10 & 127). See page 9 - Malfunctioning Indicator Lamp fails.

Toyota claims the 3 faults are due to the LPG conversion. It says it cant do nothing except check the VSC.
It found the following faults: * PO174 (System too lean), * PO102 (Air Flow meter Circuit low (LPG conversion didnt touch any of this). * PO113 (Intake Temp. Circuit high input). * C1201 (Engine Control System Malfunction).

About PO174: LPG converter rechecks & resets every thing but nothing improves. PO102: The conversion didnt do anything to it & didnt touch it at all. PO113: LPG mech didnt touch it at all. C1201: LPG mech cant find any thing.

So the VSC warning light remains on. Traction Control System warning light remains on. Malfunctioning Indicator Lamp warning light remains on.

My Sportivo Aurion is about 10 weeks old. After the LPG conversion it has only done about 3,000 km.

Because of the LPG conversion Toyota warranty does not cover the problem. It claims they are due to the conversion. The mech/converter has done every possible to rectify the trouble but the problems wont go away. He said all work on the conversion was perfectly done & rechecked.

CAN ANY ONE HELP ME?
PLEASE HELP/ADVICE.

Thank you.

KLT3912 which state are u in? doesnt te person who did the job provide warranty for 6 months or more?

you could try to find a LPG converter with good knowledge of Aurion
I wonder if if Toyota technicians can help
maybe you need a Toyota engineer

is it possible to undo the conversion?

third party LPG conversion voids warranty
you should only do it if your covered, (ie. converter offers warranty on seamless operation with the rest of the car)

its very unfortunate that some of you guys have had bad luck with your convertions becuase since ive had mine done ive clocked up 24,000 kms to date, average lpg consumption is about 13.5lt per 100kms and thats driving it pretty hard,,actually it doesnt really like been driven like a granny,have had no such problems like fault lights coming on or things stop working,, had mine done by a guy in queanbeyan(just outside canberra) cost me $4400 for the convertion and its costing me about $38-$39 bucks a tank and getting about 420k's out off it around town.using about 10 litres petrol every 15 or so lpg fills*** landi renzo I LOVE YOU *** ;-)

oh yer and the power drop,, well,, ??? what power drop? not worth talking about!

my girlfriends brother has a vt commodore ss which was in perfect condition mechanically, and he decided to put it on lpg due to getting only 300kms per $70 tank of petrol. this was six months ago.

now, the ignition system is shagged, he needs valve stems replaced, constantly replacing spark plugs, and number 8 cylinder now not working at all. now he will need a new camshaft. all this because he switched over to lpg

so i dont think its worth it if you want to keep your car for years to come

It's a very mixed bag when it comes to LPG conversions. Some engines take it well, others do not. Obviously there is a huge impact depending on the type of equipment used in the conversion and the fitter.

I am personally very happy with just running with fuel, as I run off ethanol only (which is already cheaper than standard generic fuel anyway), and I get on average about 590km/tank with a combination of suburban and city driving. In the country for continuous driving I get about 700-750km/tank. To me this is perfectly reasonable, even with prices as they are these days for fuel.

I would not have gas installed for the above mentioned reasons, and because with petrol I still have a full warranty, with an engine tuned to run correctly as designed with normal fuel, and no risk of additional wear and tear on the engine. Sure it may cost a little to fill up when required, but if you choose your days carefully and only stick with the reputable problems, it's not a terrible thing.

unlike factory fitted LPG, we don't have a standard with third party conversions
like Burgundy wine, it really is a mine field

and to me, whats on the other side of the field is just not worth it

LPG fans should write to Toyota, maybe they'll introduce factory-fitted LPG Camry/Aurion
after all, they have the experience (Toyota LPG Taxi at Hong Kong)

Had my 2007 Aurion ZR6 converted last week. All going well, no noticeable loss of power infact the 'lag' seems to be gone when taking off from a standing start, it is vapour injection. I can keep updating if you would like.

That would be good.

to a previous post regarding taxi's

most taxi's are dedicated gas,they come from the factory(ford and holden) with stronger and more suitable valve stems,seats etc,another reason they get so many miles without too many probs is maintenance and they are usually left running most of the time.
most aftermarket gas systems start on petrol and shortly after switch to gas automatically,obviously dedicated gas does'nt

just my 2 cents worth

also the aurion imo is exceptionally good fuel wise so i would'nt bother with gas


cheers

Toyota has factory gas available on its commercial vechicles...

if they believed it was going to be a stable system on their other vechicles... you'd assume it would be available for them too

Update on Conversion.
The trip computer does not recalculate 'Distance to Empty' or 'Ltrs/100' based on what is in the tank?

My current distance to empty is 0km with a quarter of a tank of petrol, having used primarily gas.

I will have to fill with petrol and gas so I can start to log the km's. Too excited last week when I got the car back to think of logging details, just wanted to drive...