GM may go under

[SuperDave]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jlB5Dk1...aupJoAD94AG6B00

DETROIT (AP) — The American auto industry is running on fumes. General Motors, the nation's largest automaker, warned Friday that it may run out of money by the end of the year after piling up billions in third-quarter losses and burning through cash at an alarming rate. Ford sustained heavy losses, too.

The situation is so severe, GM has suspended talks to acquire Chrysler and is appealing to the government for help as the slumping economy drags cars sales to their lowest level in a quarter century.

Everyone knew GM was slowly going under, but looks like things have sped up lately.

[Leroy]

You gotta love it how these big businesses pull the guilt trip to the tune of "waah, we are multi-billion dollar companies that employ thousands of people - if you don't bail us out we will have to lay every one off..."

Fuel increases and increases in eco awareness are not new - hell, even the credit crisis is at least 18 months old now. Yet GM and the other american/australian motor companies continued making cars the size of the Titanic - and then wonder why their business models fail.

That's not bad luck or the effects of a credit crunch - it is nothing other than a poor business decision, of which the taxpayer should not have to compensate for.

Edited November 8, 2008 by Leroy

[Wixy]

its their fault for not taking on the economical product approach sooner rather than later.

they still make cars fit for the 70's and 80's.

they still make cars that are unreliable

they still maintain the same culture rather than having a look at how the japs do it - the it'll be right attitude costs them in terms of reliably, durability and thus, sales, and customer loyalty.

this needs to happen to crush their egos, wake up and smell roses, but i think they'll be right (the irony LOL)

look how mitsubishi turned out. everyone said they would go under and their name would be inexistant by 2007. they are strong, not super, but enough to keep the brand alive and sales have crept back after their lowdown with their trucks.

after this, i hope gm make reliable and economical cars, i hope they can get it in2 their thick skulls.

[SuperDave]

I just hope the money being used to bail out these companies gets paid back at some point. But at the end of the day I'd rather my tax money go into someone's pocket via work instead of the dole. You need to remember, it's not the fella on the assembly line who made the business go bad.

My understanding from that article was that the money being handed out had to go towards making more fuel efficient cars and etc etc.

[One-pager]

more astras *shudder*

ford XR5 turbo is a pretty sweet car though.

[SuperDave]

Ford Europe does pretty well, the other markets don't. Ford Oz really needed to export the Falcon to bring in some money like Holden and Toyota does.

[Leroy]

Ford Europe does pretty well, the other markets don't. Ford Oz really needed to export the Falcon to bring in some money like Holden and Toyota does.

And why does ford Europe do well? Because they know they cannot compete with the big german manufacturers - so they use a low cost strategy. Ford Europe pumps out the fiesta, focus, mondeo and transit - why would anyone there bother buying an exported falcon, when they can have the almost as big Mondeo with a nicer ride quality and interior for less the price? Sure you could pay extra for a big v6 and RWD - but why would you when for a little more you could have a 3 series, c-class, or passat...

The only place that the falcon could successfully be exported to would be the US market - which, as demonstrated by the first post in this thread, is already flailing due to a horrendous oversuuply of too big, too thirsty cars.

I woud also like to make reference to the fact that in the time GM and Ford have been whinging and downsizing, Toyota has built another 14 facilities in the US - only reinforcing that it comes down to bad business decisions by GM and Ford. So if they die - then I'm sure Toyota will be there to replace the jobs...

(Don't quote me on the number, but another user posted the article I'm talking about somewhere on here many months ago...)

[SuperDave]

Ford Europe does pretty well, the other markets don't. Ford Oz really needed to export the Falcon to bring in some money like Holden and Toyota does.

And why does ford Europe do well? Because they know they cannot compete with the big german manufacturers - so they use a low cost strategy. Ford Europe pumps out the fiesta, focus, mondeo and transit - why would anyone there bother buying an exported falcon, when they can have the almost as big Mondeo with a nicer ride quality and interior for less the price? Sure you could pay extra for a big v6 and RWD - but why would you when for a little more you could have a 3 series, c-class, or passat...

I was implying that the Falcon be shipped to the middle east like the Commodore and Aurion is. Ford Europe doesn't need sales of a big RWD car as, you stated, they don't need to go head to head with the better RWD cars on offer, especially when it'll be in the same price bracket.

[robie]

more astras *shudder*

ford XR5 turbo is a pretty sweet car though.

your not a mechanic are you both astras n focus's ***** car yes the xr5 goes n sounds nice but just as many reliability issues as the other models i dont under dtsand how gm n ford have lasted this long with between 70-95% of repairs being warranty work aposed to 10-30% of jap companies where do the other companies go wrong

[Leroy]

I was implying that the Falcon be shipped to the middle east like the Commodore and Aurion is. Ford Europe doesn't need sales of a big RWD car as, you stated, they don't need to go head to head with the better RWD cars on offer, especially when it'll be in the same price bracket.

Good point, Superdave... I sorta forgot about the middle east as a separate market.

That said, i ponder 2 things:

1. Is there really room for the falcon? Considering they have commodore, aurion, and the host of european manufacturers a couple of borders away...

2. As for GM - Holden is under the umbrella of GM, yes? So I'd wager that middle east exports of the commodore aren't really going to be the lifesaver for them.

[SV21]

The model of a free enterprise market is designed for growth or failure under competitive conditions.

All these bailouts might be necessary otherwise financial markets,jobs,growth etc go under however....

If you cannot make your business prosper then you are a failure and have not adjusted your business methods to suit the market trends.

[jps137]

your not a mechanic are you both astras n focus's ***** car yes the xr5 goes n sounds nice but just as many reliability issues as the other models i dont under dtsand how gm n ford have lasted this long with between 70-95% of repairs being warranty work aposed to 10-30% of jap companies where do the other companies go wrong

But it's all about the price tag isn't it?

Talking with the neighbors after I got my Corolla I showed them through it and explained some of the features. When I was asked about the price the response was that's a lot for a small car a couple of k more and you could have a Falcon/Commodore.

When people shop for a car how many look at reliability vs. ticket price? My primary reason for buying the Corolla over something from Korea was reliability (the fact I wouldn't be seen dead purchasing a new Korean was another factor but not the driving one) Would people pay 5k more for a car that was more reliable? the answer unfortunately is no. Most people look at what they get on paper (feautures, size, performance) and not the aftersales side of things (reliability servicing costs).

[Wixy]

your not a mechanic are you both astras n focus's ***** car yes the xr5 goes n sounds nice but just as many reliability issues as the other models i dont under dtsand how gm n ford have lasted this long with between 70-95% of repairs being warranty work aposed to 10-30% of jap companies where do the other companies go wrong

But it's all about the price tag isn't it?

Talking with the neighbors after I got my Corolla I showed them through it and explained some of the features. When I was asked about the price the response was that's a lot for a small car a couple of k more and you could have a Falcon/Commodore.

When people shop for a car how many look at reliability vs. ticket price? My primary reason for buying the Corolla over something from Korea was reliability (the fact I wouldn't be seen dead purchasing a new Korean was another factor but not the driving one) Would people pay 5k more for a car that was more reliable? the answer unfortunately is no. Most people look at what they get on paper (feautures, size, performance) and not the aftersales side of things (reliability servicing costs).

u made a good point there jps137.

however, that point is only valid in countries such as US and Australia -> im not being...culturally discriminate here but thats the facts. would a tradition aussie outback family want to be seen in their towns/small cities in a 1.8L Corrolla, SMALL CAR? or do they want to be seen in a V6/V8/V10/V12 monster?! Its all about the shallowness of size, and the attitude of who's got the bigger...mmm. hehe.

However.

everyone else in OTHER countries seem to be normal and smart about their purchasing options.

drive sedans that are anything bigger than a V6 in other countries and they'll think your a retard, except of course if the car is a legitimate sports coupe worth more than $200,000, or has something to do with going faster than the speed of light.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Wixy

[SuperDave]

jps137, you are right. Very few people buy the car that actually suits their needs. As one of the journo's in Wheels or Motor mag said, everyone always asks for his opinion on the car they are looking at and are always surprised to find out that he thinks its crap and then they begin arguing with him as to why it isn't. Look how many people have a 4wd when a Falcon or Commodore, or possibly a medium sized car, can do exactly the same as what they use them for; going to work/shops/school. If they need 7 seats buy a people mover, if you need to tow something buy a Commo/Falcon. If you need to 4wd just hire the thing, it works out a lot cheaper and you don't have to worry about the rust. Dad used to own a 4wd and even though we used it fairly often for what it was intended, Dad gave up as the extra cost in petrol and maintenance wasn't worth the headache over hiring one when needed.

[jps137]

however, that point is only valid in countries such as US and Australia -> im not being...culturally discriminate here but thats the facts. would a tradition aussie outback family want to be seen in their towns/small cities in a 1.8L Corrolla, SMALL CAR? or do they want to be seen in a V6/V8/V10/V12 monster?! Its all about the shallowness of size, and the attitude of who's got the bigger...mmm. hehe.

However.

everyone else in OTHER countries seem to be normal and smart about their purchasing options.

drive sedans that are anything bigger than a V6 in other countries and they'll think your a retard, except of course if the car is a legitimate sports coupe worth more than $200,000, or has something to do with going faster than the speed of light.

Yes and it is unfortunate that the US is such a large consumer of cars that has kept the likes of GM and Ford producing cars that are inefficient and oversized. Maybe it's all got something to do with fuel prices or maybe we need a sales tax systme like some of the Asian countries have which is based on capacity. In Indonesia (this is going back a few years so things may have changed) for example one is hit with 400% sales tax for anything over 3L, hence a lot of luxury European cars were only 2.8L, though tax above 1.8 was still quite hefty, they also sold 2WD LandCruisers

Motorcycles are a prime example, everyone loves a Harley but how efficient are they, one of the Japanese manufacturers (Yamaha I think) actually had to severly detune their engine (25-33% power drop) to get the Harley sound (or similar to avoid infringing the patent)

Edited November 11, 2008 by jps137

[jps137]

jps137, you are right. Very few people buy the car that actually suits their needs. As one of the journo's in Wheels or Motor mag said, everyone always asks for his opinion on the car they are looking at and are always surprised to find out that he thinks its crap and then they begin arguing with him as to why it isn't. Look how many people have a 4wd when a Falcon or Commodore, or possibly a medium sized car, can do exactly the same as what they use them for; going to work/shops/school. If they need 7 seats buy a people mover, if you need to tow something buy a Commo/Falcon. If you need to 4wd just hire the thing, it works out a lot cheaper and you don't have to worry about the rust. Dad used to own a 4wd and even though we used it fairly often for what it was intended, Dad gave up as the extra cost in petrol and maintenance wasn't worth the headache over hiring one when needed.

Quite right every one will hire a ute but no one seems to get the idea of hiring the 4WD or large sedan for the holidays and just use a small to mid size as the daily car. Similarly one sees all those couples he has the SS / XR8 for to and from work and she as a Barina / Fiesta for getting the kids around and doing the shopping where the extra space (and possible extra safety for the kids) is actually needed.

[SuperDave]

...Maybe it's all got something to do with fuel prices or maybe we need a sales tax systme like some of the Asian countries have which is based on capacity. In Indonesia (this is going back a few years so things may have changed) for example one is hit with 400% sales tax...

Motorcycles are a prime example, everyone loves a Harley but how efficient are they, one of the Japanese manufacturers (Yamaha I think) actually had to severly detune their engine (25-33% power drop) to get the Harley sound (or similar to avoid infringing the patent)

Thailand used to have a fairly high tax too. Don't quote me on the figures, but I think it was like 100%, it was then dropped down to 20% and everyone was suddenly able to afford a car. Their road network suddenly became 20 years out of date.

[Leroy]

...Maybe it's all got something to do with fuel prices or maybe we need a sales tax systme like some of the Asian countries have which is based on capacity. In Indonesia (this is going back a few years so things may have changed) for example one is hit with 400% sales tax...

Motorcycles are a prime example, everyone loves a Harley but how efficient are they, one of the Japanese manufacturers (Yamaha I think) actually had to severly detune their engine (25-33% power drop) to get the Harley sound (or similar to avoid infringing the patent)

Thailand used to have a fairly high tax too. Don't quote me on the figures, but I think it was like 100%, it was then dropped down to 20% and everyone was suddenly able to afford a car. Their road network suddenly became 20 years out of date.

The car tax system both does and doesn't work. Singapore is another prime example. To reduce congestion and pollution, they have a tax on the vehicle itself (not sure the %age, but ends up double the price here) - and then they have a COE (Certificate of entitlement) which is 50% of the purchase price of the car, which gives you 10 yrs worth of rights to use public roads. So to put that in perspective a corolla is 25 grand here - making it approx 50 grand there, PLUS the COE = 75 grand for a corolla, give or take.

Also, once the 10 yrs is up, it is compulsory to surrender your car to the govt and purchase a new one, or pay the original COE fee on a 10yr depreciated vehicle... this encourages more efficient vehicles on the roads.

Although this means newer, cleaner cars are on the roads, however, and that the roads are more than paid for - the average joe cannot afford a car. Instead, a huge proportion of vehicles you see on the roads there are luxury 8-12 cylinder cars. So instead of everyone being environmentally conscious with a little car, the people that can afford all the taxes end up buying big luxury or sports cars to show off - which really defeats the purpose.

Mind you, this encourages everyone else to use their subway system - which is one of the best in the world. Perhaps if a large car tax were introduced here, the revenue raised could be used to upgrade public transport instead of being given back to GM etc to design cars to save themselves...

[lateralus]

unfortunately, it still won't get rid of the bogans in their vn's

[mpresara]

Ford Europe does pretty well, the other markets don't. Ford Oz really needed to export the Falcon to bring in some money like Holden and Toyota does.

And why does ford Europe do well? Because they know they cannot compete with the big german manufacturers - so they use a low cost strategy. Ford Europe pumps out the fiesta, focus, mondeo and transit - why would anyone there bother buying an exported falcon, when they can have the almost as big Mondeo with a nicer ride quality and interior for less the price? Sure you could pay extra for a big v6 and RWD - but why would you when for a little more you could have a 3 series, c-class, or passat...

I was implying that the Falcon be shipped to the middle east like the Commodore and Aurion is. Ford Europe doesn't need sales of a big RWD car as, you stated, they don't need to go head to head with the better RWD cars on offer, especially when it'll be in the same price bracket.

I agree, the Middle East would be the ideal market for an export Falcon. Ford USA did not allow this as it claims it would jeopardise sales of USA models to these markets. When you go to places like the U.A.E. there are Commodores everywhere badged as Chevys. You only see very few Fords and they are the ugliest looking heaps you could hope to find anywhere, the current Falcon would be an instant hit over there, much like the Aurion which you see everywhere.