Chassing extreme RPM

[HiLift]

Hey all Im getting my head done next week and just want to know what else needs doing in order to rev around the 10k mark?

whats being done:

MWR 1ZZ / 2ZZ High Performance Valve Stem Seal Kit

MWR 2ZZ-GE Valve Set- Flat Face

MWR ARP head stud kit - Toyota 1ZZ/2ZZ - ARP 2000

Piper Cam Set - 2ZZ - BP320 (Stage 3)

Toyota OEM Head Gasket - 2ZZ-GE

MWR 2ZZ-GE 9500rpm+ Valve Spring and Ti retainer Combo

& Port and Polishing

any help would be awesome.

[123R-Prozak]

dnt take my word for it but i thought i read somewhere you gotta do oil pump aswell.... ?

[SuperDave]

dnt take my word for it but i thought i read somewhere you gotta do oil pump aswell.... ?

Yep, stock oil pump becomes unreliable above 8800 rpm.

[HiLift]

Hey dave i met you yesterday at qld raceway. i had the white rolla in the car park.

so go for the toda oil pump?

other that that should be ok

cheers

ps i think someone needs to teach me how to race on the track. to used to drags lol

[and1]

Upgraded rods and bearings?

Circuitworx oil pump gears.

I'm wondering how hard it would be to rev to 10,000 reliably

I've got a similar project in the works but the aim is more like 9,000 rpm

Edited April 11, 2010 by and1

[ELEGNT]

im pretty sure northy got to the 10k mark?

[CHA54]

im pretty sure northy got to the 10k mark?

How many times? :P

I'm guessing this will be a track-only engine? If you're going to see 10K all the time, I'd be sourcing the lightest internals possible. I noticed MWR sell Ti 2zz rods...

I'd also run an external oil pump/dry sump to ensure you always have the required oil pressure. This is probably overkill, but for the amount of money that's required to be spent for a reliable 10K engine it's cheap insurance.

If you're serious then it would pay to give someone like Neil Trama a call and even get him to build the engine.

Edited April 11, 2010 by CHA54

[SuperDave]

Hey dave i met you yesterday at qld raceway. i had the white rolla in the car park.

so go for the toda oil pump?

Ah yes, I thoguht I heard a different user name. Going deaf in my old age.

The Toda pump is most likely the Circuitworx pump but with JDM tax on top. The circuitworx can be bought from MWR for much less.

Could also be worthwhile checking out the bearings. I would also have the crank removed to check for true-ness, because at those rpms you'd want to make sure it's as straight as it can be.

[xoom]

as stated i'd recommend u go with the titanium rods that mwr now supplies .... u want ur gear to be as light as possible ..... might want to look into pistons while ur at it as the wiseco's i got r heaps lighter than the stockers .....

circuitworx dont make a pump per say they simply provide an upgrade oil pump gear so ur only strengthening but still pumping same volumes .... supposidly the toga hv pump is around but i havent been able to get reliable figures on volumes vs the stock setup.

as jason aka cha54 has stated ..... hitting upwards of 10k u might want to seriously think about moving on to the next level for ur oil needs.

im also going to speculate that the stock injector are gonna need to go and im assuming ur gonna run some other form of engine management ? pfc, hydra etc ? fuel pump might also be another port of call .....

also with this sort of rev range i wonder what the stock gearbox is going to have to say about things ..... i experienced issues due to power levels but im not sure where its gonna draw the line when it comes to stretching its boundary ....... it will be far less forgiving if u dont hit a shift at that high a rpm ...... new clutch is also a suggestion as well as upgrading ur flywheel bolts ...... a lighter flywheel can benefit but also play against u .... i.e. revs faster but also drops faster ......

[SILVABULLIT]

I'd be doing a whole engine rebuild not just the top end. Balancing titanium rods, crank crack tested as well as balanced and perhaps lighten the counterweights a tad by knife edging, equal weighting rods and pistons(new pistons), gapless rings, new timing chain and tensioner, new clutch and light flywheel with new bolts, high volume baffled sump wouldn't hurt or my preference would be a dry sump set up with extra oil cooler and increased oil capacity.

That's just a start plus what you have already mentioned. Be prepared to spend up big as achieving a high revving N/A engine will almost cost as much as setting one up for forced induction.(Now that Xoom has done all the hard work LOL)

[HiLift]

ok thanks for all the help. maybe 10k is a little out of reach right now may just hover around the 9k mark until i can take on the bottom end.

cheers Dylan

[Suprathai]

I think there is someone running 13s in a celica over on new celica on a 9.5K setup.

He mentioned that pretty much everything had to be balanced (Crank, Pistons rods, everything...), all the things connected to the crank, so that would include ancillaries as well. Also at those RPMS, the DD performance intake manifold would be what you want to look into as well.

[SuperDave]

Also at those RPMS, the DD performance intake manifold would be what you want to look into as well.

He mentioned going to the Piper stage 3 cams; the DD IM isn't designed for the piper cam specs, so isn't optimised, would be best to wait for the all out IM he is working on. He has setup a workshop now so he should be able to get some work done on it.

Forgot to mention, MWR have released a dry sump setup, which could be an option.

[Northy]

Rods dont like doing 9K+. Another thing, whats the point in the extra RPM if the cam makes no more power over 8,400rpm?

[DreadAngel]

^^^

If your cam selection isn't correct, it won't do anything for you... If you go for cams that can stretch that far, you'll lose all sorts of response and economy, not to mention your car won't be discrete so you'll inevitably attract all sorts of attention, not what you really want these days...

[HiLift]

Rods dont like doing 9K+. Another thing, whats the point in the extra RPM if the cam makes no more power over 8,400rpm?

so your saying don't go past 9K without doing the bottom end? That would be fine its looking far to pricey to past 9k anyway. And even then there will be no power increase past 8400? even with the piper stage 3 cams?

[Rocketeer1]

All I can say is get familiar with Oil analasys. $36 per hit, for very cheap insurance against mechanical failiure. Check out Lubetech Also I know some very smart people in oil, who can give some handy advice on expected wear rates, reading analasys etc. Food for thought......

[Northy]

Rods dont like doing 9K+. Another thing, whats the point in the extra RPM if the cam makes no more power over 8,400rpm?

so your saying don't go past 9K without doing the bottom end? That would be fine its looking far to pricey to past 9k anyway. And even then there will be no power increase past 8400? even with the piper stage 3 cams?

I wouldn't be going much over the stock 8,200 limit without doing the bottom end. The graphs on the MWR site show that the power peaks around 8,200-8,400 RPM so there isn't much point going any higher.

[xoom]

Rods dont like doing 9K+. Another thing, whats the point in the extra RPM if the cam makes no more power over 8,400rpm?

so your saying don't go past 9K without doing the bottom end? That would be fine its looking far to pricey to past 9k anyway. And even then there will be no power increase past 8400? even with the piper stage 3 cams?

I wouldn't be going much over the stock 8,200 limit without doing the bottom end. The graphs on the MWR site show that the power peaks around 8,200-8,400 RPM so there isn't much point going any higher.

as true as that may be u should know what its all about north i.e. keeping the car in the highest range of the power band for as long as possible ....... if u can get ur car to produce 2-3K rpms worth of consistent power at say 130kw @ wheels that would be better than having to drop back to like 100 ish kw between shifts then build back up to the peak figure ...... the just as interesting figure to see would be what happens to torque depending on the cam setup + the tune as an even balance between the 2 needs to be achieved to get the thing to perform.

Adding a c-one/kaaz short ratio gear.set + final drive to this sort of setup would make for a very interesting high rev'er .... dont get me wrong its streetablility or use as an a->b car would be extremely testing but it would make for a beast of a thing i reckon that would sound insane.

[SuperDave]

Adding a c-one/kaaz short ratio gear.set + final drive to this sort of setup would make for a very interesting high rev'er .... dont get me wrong its streetablility or use as an a->b car would be extremely testing but it would make for a beast of a thing i reckon that would sound insane.

With gear ratio changes you need to be very careful. I know a couple S2000 owners who were very ****** off after forking out a pile of cash on new ge****ts, only to do slower on the track; reason? They have to shift more often, thus each shift costs them acceleration for a brief moment. Plus it is also to do with corner exit acceleration.