strange questions relating to pre facelift vs facelift Sportivo

[rich70]

Hey guys,

It's nearing the end of exams for university and i'm planning on upgrading to a Sportivo before the next semester starts.

After countless searches on carsales, gumtree etc...

All the pre-facelift models are around $10k, and facelift models hover around $14k for decent mileage. I love the facelift front, but not enough to pay an extra $4k for it, especially when i could buy a pre-facelift, coilovers, set wheels and tyres, probably a CAI and still be below $14k.

Wanted to ask:

How well does the 2zz-ge hold up when the engine has clocked a fair bit of mileage, i.e. 200,000km?

Could you have a track day without worrying something major will go wrong with the engine?

I know changing a pre-facelift to facelift front is a lot of trouble and a lot of people suggest just buying the facelift model...but would it be easier than an engine replacement?

Is it worth buying a facelift model with around 150k+ km already on it? How strong will the engine pull at around that stage?

I'm thinking of either buying a cheaper pre-facelift model with relatively lower mileage and swapping the front end if i REALLY can't stand the pre-facelift design in the future, or buying a facelift model with higher mileage and maybe swapping in a fresh engine down the line?

just a quick look on carsales:

$8,500 for 03 Sportivo, 95,000 km

$10,000 for 05 Sportivo, 150,000 km

That's pretty much what i'm deciding on, because i'd like a few thousand to spend on mods as opposed to buying a stock 05 Sportivo for ~$14k

Both these ideas seem a bit troublesome, but i'm up for any suggestions on how i should look at this.

Thanks!

Edited November 13, 2012 by rich70

[ImPulse]

I would personally buy the newest, lowest KM car you can afford with the best service history. I can't speak for the reliability of the engine because mine has only done 130 xxx km but I hear that the 2ZZ is a rather expensive engine to source (engine alone).

Got links to the two cars you posted? Im curious as to why the 03 model has significantly less KMs on it, even though its older.

What mods would you be looking at?

[rich70]

thanks for reply =)

yeah sure the 2 cars are these:

03 model

http://www.carsales....O]&sort=default

05 model

http://www.carsales....VO]&sort=~Price

actually just saw an 05 model for $10k with only 100,000km on it so that seems like a bargain. Although it is all the way up in QLD

I can't stand the height after driving my Ascent lol...and handling after i drove an FN2R the other day...damn those things are nice.

I'd want to do coilovers, intake, exhaust for a start. Maybe headers, after i learn more about the car.

I've seen threads where 03 Sportivos with very high km (e.g.180,000km) have been sold. I'm trying to figure our why someone actually bought it... i've got very little clue lol. i would've thought the engine would be a little puffed out by then.

Edited November 13, 2012 by rich70

[ImPulse]

If you average it out 180 000 over 9 years (03) is actually what they term 'average' KMs for a car - 20 000km/year. Some people will argue that 'highway KMs' are better on the car than start-stop city driving. I haven't formed an opinion over that and I'm not gonna start an argument here haha.

Placed in your shoes, i'd be looking at the 03 model purely cos its newer in terms of KMs. Looks unmolested/unmodified which I like as a base car, that way you know exactly what you're doing with your mods. But I get where you're coming from in terms of the 'looks' of the facelift. I may be biased against old cars because prior to my sportivo i drove a 92 S13 which was nothing but trouble for me haha.

I'm hoping someone else can chime in to the 'reliability' of these 2ZZ engines.

[rich70]

haha yeah, i'm with you on the highway vs stop start km thing.

i'm currently driving an Ascent, which has done about 280,000km. The car's still fairly quite, runs smoothly, only the engine oil tends to leak out a little bit. It sure doesn't sound healthy if you go past 4000rpm though...which is why i never try to anymore. There's a picture in my head if i go anywhere near 5-6000rpm it'll just blow up lol

I'm sure the 2zz can run just as long as the 1zz, but being able to run in lift might be a different story?

[ParvezK]

That '03 sportivo you posted the link of has been up for sale for quiet a while bud. I'd look into it really carefully if I were considering buying it. When I started hunting for a sportivo back in january this year, that car had been up for sale. From January up till october, it was still for sale because in that time I was constantly on the look out for sportivo's on carsales, gumtree, trading post, forums & eBay!

So just be careful with that car mate! Do as many checks as you can if you go to check it out..

I've always asked myself everytime I saw that car on carsales, "why is it still for sale?". I mean surely there's something different about it which is why it's still for sale!

[david.]

My mate's late '99 zzt celica sat on about 250,000kms when he sold it, never did a compression test or anything on the engine but it did pull quite fast and from memory there were no leaks or anything wrong. I would personally go with the 03 one too, only because the engine is just so much newer. Since ParvezK said that though, I would definitely check over everything fully and even ask the owner if I can do a compression test (never know, he might of done 200,000kms+ on the engine and swapped out the cluster). Also, when you test drive it remember to redline it, I test drove one just last week and for some reason lift didn't engage.

(p.s. that celica's been hooned with for its whole life)

[rich70]

thanks for the suggestions!

ParvezK, thanks for the heads up!

When i'm ready to actually go ahead and buy one i'll look at that particular car carefully.

I know that everyone would be looking to get the facelift models so the pre-facelift models might not be getting any love...or interest =S. that explains the lower price...but if the car's been up there, there may be other reasons lol. most of the ones i keep an eye on disappear after a while too.

david, how much did he sell it for?! lol. there must be a reason why these cars are still getting sold and bought with very high mileage.

[david.]

mm yeah but still doesn't quite explain such a low price. One with those km's could easily sell for over $10,000. I'm not sure about everyone looking for a facelift, I actually had my eye set on a pre-facelift from the start because I liked the look more with a grill, eyelids and black housing. It's just a matter of personal taste. He sold it for about 8k or 8.5k I think haha. These engines seem to be quite reliable though, with proper maintenance.

[rich70]

^

yeahh the other pre-facelift models that go for about $10,000 all have over 100,000+ km so who knows =S

there's another blue one on carsales, pre-facelift, with trd grill and eyelids that looks very nice imo

trd grill and eyelids actually make it very nice. it's the only way i'd settle for a pre-facelift over a facelift haha.

it's just from some angles, the front bumper looks round and just makes the car look round and chubby. but from other angles it does look very nice.

i dunno if i'm the only one ever thinking about these ideas...but i want to take off the side skirts and front lip and retro fit some lips like the ones in this picture.

http://images.uptilo...44A2C908F5F.jpg

i just think the body kit makes the car look too tall and bulky. removing the body kit means i can lower it more without it looking stupid, like it's scraping the ground.

...yeap i think my ideas are getting a little weird sometimes

Edited November 13, 2012 by rich70

[sportivo2007]

car history is your friend for a little price .

[ParvezK]

Yeah, www.carhistory.com.au is a great site to use! Also, the PPSR site gives you a full report on the record of the car.

If you're in NSW then $18 will get a full report of the car from the RTA regardless which state it's registered in. Just the VIN & engine number is needed. It'll give you the list of it's previous owners.

[Kenshin X]

would a green sportivo suit what u r looking for? lol

[Rolla & Sao Boy]

I got my 03 Sportivo with 140K on the clock.

Now it has nearly 215K on it and the only thing thats requiring a replacement is the clutch.

Just about every sportivo has been done up then dressed down to stock before being sold in this day and age.

I personally think there would be a very low percentage with low genuine Ks on it.

I'm no saint, in my younger days when i first got the car i used to enjoy the lift but now with more sense and the rising fuel cost the driving is more sensible. Those cars are made to handle that so dont worry about the engine too much unless there is something obvious you can see wrong.

Does anyone know what is a approx cost to recondition a Sportivo engine ?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Rolla & Sao Boy

[rich70]

haha, Kenshin X, i think i've only seen your car once at Maccas when i was driving down Springvale Rd.

Sadly no =(.

I'm mostly aiming for a black or dark blue one haha.

Thanks for the tips Rolla,

I've only been through a handful of threads in this Corolla section, but to what extent do you think Sportivos have been done up before sale? I would've thought most people use them as daily drivers, with few, basic mods. The stock appearance does make it seem like it's never been thrashed or anything...but then again anyone buying a Sportivo surely knows about what it can do lol.

[Mellow]

I wouldn't worry either about high K's. My Sportivo has also got 215,000 k's on it and it runs like a dream. Doesn't burn oil / blow smoke, has no leaks, doesn't use coolant and is a good quiet engine. It has full service history though so I know that it got regualr oil changes.

[Kenshin X]

when any car uses coolant, its fked

[rich70]

Seems like the general idea is that these engines still pull pretty strong after a bit of mileage, which is good to hear!

I drove a friend's Civic Type R the other day, FN2R model.

I knew the car had a K20 in it which is around 158kw? I'd never read up on it previously, but the car was damn fun to drive.

Handling, brakes, the bucket seats...everything was very nice, and it seemed to pull very hard as well.

It was like all you would ever need, and this is comparing to the Ascent i drive lol.

The Sportivo would feel slightly less powerful but has anyone ever driven both? I wonder how the Sportivo would handle compared to the FN2R after a few suspension upgrades.

[Kenshin X]

u would need to spend abit of money to get the suspension on the sportivo to be on par with a FN2R with just say... coilovers and your usual bars. type Rs are what type Rs are made for: racing.

[handsome]

Cant compare the sportivo with FN2R at all. completely different playing field.

Even comparing with a stock DC2, a sportivo with coils, rear sway and some strut braces would still have a hard time keeping up assuming equal driver skill. sportivo chassis is just crazy bad for handling, grocery getting it fine ;)

[redtivo]

The fn2r engine is 147kw from memory K20a3. the 158kw engine is the Ep3 k20.

2zzge engines last ages, just look at the celicas with 300,000kms on the engine.

Reconditioning an engine would cost u between 2-4k depending on what needs to be done, labour will kill the cost, especially if you gotta pull your engine, ideally, if you had a second engine in pieces, build that one up and put it in. you can check the MWR website for parts to put in your engine, Im pretty sure if u blow ur engine u can source a second hand 2zzge for about 2-3k from a wrecker.

Sportivo's pulls great as the fn2r, as the fn2 weighs almost 150kgs more, and they handle similar, just the sportivo should need some stiffer springs and lowering but they have the same suspension setups ie. rear torsion beam.

---

A stock sportivo is quite de tuned, alot of hondas are tuned from factory. so if you want your sportivo to handle and drive great, abit of work may be required. Im very happy with mine and havent felt the urge to change after being in hondas and turbo cars...and you cant beat that 4 door practicality

Edited November 19, 2012 by redtivo

[rich70]

6kw more than Sportivo, but 150kg heavier hmmm...the 2 sound pretty close to me ^_^. Should be just as fun then. The FN2 didn't seem to pull as hard in VTEC compared to some of the Sportivo videos i've seen on youtube. It was bone stock though.

I'd be using it as a daily for sure, and I often drive my 2 smaller brothers around so i sure need the practicality of the Corolla.

I've thought about getting a DC2 VTi-R but my head was hitting the roof in the back seat of a friend's and i'm only about 170cm.

so nopeeee not gonna happen haha.

Edited November 19, 2012 by rich70

[Jeriko]

I got my 03 Sportivo with 140K on the clock.

Now it has nearly 215K on it and the only thing thats requiring a replacement is the clutch.

Just about every sportivo has been done up then dressed down to stock before being sold in this day and age.

I personally think there would be a very low percentage with low genuine Ks on it.

I'm no saint, in my younger days when i first got the car i used to enjoy the lift but now with more sense and the rising fuel cost the driving is more sensible. Those cars are made to handle that so dont worry about the engine too much unless there is something obvious you can see wrong.

Does anyone know what is a approx cost to recondition a Sportivo engine ?

Yeah I just had my engine rebuilt - And it ain't lifting properly either atm but working with the mechanic currently on that issue.

I had a little bit of extra work done to the engine - mild port and polish and replaced the timing chain, guides, stainless valves and springs etc basically repaced as much as possible cost me just under $6000 ( and 3 months in the waiting time for parts, mechanic hadn't heard of MWR decided to get everything custom made ;/ ) - Thing that **** me is a brand new 2 ltr 2zzge is about 9k - Coulda whacked that in and saved a ****** load of hassle and gained a **** load more power!

[rich70]

Yeah I just had my engine rebuilt - And it ain't lifting properly either atm but working with the mechanic currently on that issue.

I had a little bit of extra work done to the engine - mild port and polish and replaced the timing chain, guides, stainless valves and springs etc basically repaced as much as possible cost me just under $6000 ( and 3 months in the waiting time for parts, mechanic hadn't heard of MWR decided to get everything custom made ;/ ) - Thing that **** me is a brand new 2 ltr 2zzge is about 9k - Coulda whacked that in and saved a ****** load of hassle and gained a **** load more power!

they're that expensive?! I've seen a few on ebay for $2-3k but they're on the US site and who knows how many km they've done...

also found this after a quick search

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25/230hp-trd-spec-2zz-ge-engine-2841/

it's classified as a race engine, but 2zzge with 230hp for $8.5k haha. what a nutcase of an engine. as posted by the OP of that thread,

Upgrades:

Hi compression forged pistions 13:1

Forged Lightweight Connecting Rods

Regrind Cams

Better Valve Springs

Upgraded Valves

Since there's a lot of people doing engine swaps in Civics and Integras, there seems to be a fair amount of B series and K series engines going around. Since the 2zzge is used in lotus, celica as well as the corolla shouldn't there be a few of them around as well? or is it just an undesirable engine when it comes to engine swaps?

[redtivo]

just not enough after market support for 2zz. also people selling stuff for the 2zz want and am and leg for the parts...but if u know what to work, its pretty good, its a very light engine too.the main restriction appears to be on the intake side of things, if youport iut the mouth on the intake runner side just where it meets the plenum, it appears there are gains to be netted, wouldnt be messing with the runners themselves as that might change airflow characteristics...