Engine Oil Change Interval

[Novicebutnice]

11 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Yes, I tend to agree. If the engine has been well maitained it shouldn't be necessary. I'd really only use engine flush where sludge is detected and it needing a more aggressive approach to cleaning it out. Of course, there are different approaches to desludging, but if you want an off the shelf solution, then yes, go for the engine flush such as the Liquimoly. 

 

Engine flush should really be added with the new oil. I think that's what he meant. Makes sense right ?

I don't like to mix brands if I can help it. That's my OCD kicking in lol.. I've only ever used the Nulon fully Synthetic 5W-30 in my Aurion and am very happy with it. I also service my Dad's Aurion and for his car I soley use the Penrite brand just to change it up a bit and compare.

I'm sorry my comment about adding the flush to new engine oil and then draining was meant in a general way. Because most EOF that we can buy just say to add this to the oil before draining (after running for X amount of time).

And whilst I can understand why they say this, but adding this to engine oil that is already at the end of it's life (as well as the oil filter) is the least effective way of doing it.

For me once I find something that works, I usually just stick with  it.

But I do like to "experiment" which is why I decided to try Liquimoly Molygen 10W30 (which is apparently full synthetic)

The 5W30 comes up as incompatible on both Autobarn's list, as well as Liqui Moly Australia for my car.

What led me down that garden path is that I was looking at Liqui Moly additives, and what's available here in Australia,

And decided that instead of adding an additive to my usual oil (Shell Helix ultra 5W30, usually the ECT), I would just buy Liqui Moly oil which is roughly the same price as my usual oil.

I have plenty of my usual oil on hand so if it doesn't work out, I'll just change it :-)


(https://autobarn.com.au/ab/Autobarn-Category/Brands/LiquiMoly/Liqui-Moly-Molygen-New-Generation-10W-30-5L/p/OA04961)
 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Novicebutnice

[ZZT86]

Just to clarify the idea is to add it to the used oil about to be dumped, run it for 15 minutes @ idle, I like to take it for a drive around the block about 15 minutes @ light throttle to wash it well with the extra pressure. Park it then dump the oil, let it drain till nothing comes out then re-fill with new oil. No need for multiple drains & fills.

What I did in the past on my old celica was to flush every main service which was every 10K kms but always changed the oil every 5K kms. On the Aurion I'll do every 7.5K kms (full synthetic) as I know it makes a difference. The celica did 325K kms since new following this procedure and always used the same oil which was Helix 10W30 or HX7. The 2ZZ-GE engine was bombproof & never used a drop of oil. That was my way, yours could be a variation of this, all up to the individual of course.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ZZT86
typos

[Novicebutnice]

2 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Just to clarify the idea is to add it to the used oil about to be dumped, run it for 15 minutes @ idle, I like to take it for a drive around the block about 15 minutes @ light throttle to wash it well with the extra pressure. Park it then dump the oil, let it drain till nothing comes out then re-fill with new oil. No need for multiple drains & fills.

What I did in the past on my old celica was to flush every main service which was every 10K kms but always changed the oil every 5K kms. On the Aurion I'll do every 7.5K kms (full synthetic) as I know it makes a difference. The celica did 325K kms since new following this procedure and always used the same oil which was Helix 10W30 or HX7. The 2ZZ-GE engine was bombproof & never used a drop of oil. That was my way, yours could be a variation of this, all up to the individual of course.

The idea behind the multiple oil changes is,

The way oil removes contaminants is by holding them in suspension until the oil gets to the oil filter where most is removed (which is why oil filters have a bypass, so that if they become clogged by contaminants the engine can still have a supply of oil, since dirty oil is better than no oil).

As the oil gets "older" it's ability to hold the contaminants in suspension is reduced, meaning it will more so move the contaminants from one area to another (and possibly cause an issue), instead of taking the contaminants to the oil filter (which may already be clogged).

By using fresh oil and filter you are giving the flush the best chance to remove the contaminants.

The second oil and filter change is to remove any residual cleaners, and potentially left over contaminants (like from the sump that you might not have been able to fully drain (I used to refit the sump plug and dump about 1 litre of oil in, and then remove the sump plug, but I've never needed to do a flush).

I agree that everyone has their own version, and some people may not be able to afford the numerous oil and filter changes in my version. 

And I would only suggest doing this if you just bought the car second hand/ have a car with known sludge issues etc

But if someone is servicing their vehicle properly (including doing the in-between services, and using quality oil) than an oil flush isn't even needed :-)

Edited September 9, 2021 by Novicebutnice

[Tony Prodigy]

8 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Just to clarify the idea is to add it to the used oil about to be dumped,

Oh ok. That makes sense. I recall watching a youtube video where the guy did a whole bunch of servicing to his car, replaced the oil/filter added the new oil and THEN poured in the flush treatment. I assumed the new oil would help further clean the internals until the next oil service. Using the old oil seemed counterintuitive.  Hmm. that's got me thinking again. I might have to go back and see if I can find it.

My apologies for any confusion. Stephen (novicebutnice)

[Novicebutnice]

3 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Oh ok. That makes sense. I recall watching a youtube video where the guy did a whole bunch of servicing to his car, replaced the oil/filter added the new oil and THEN poured in the flush treatment. I assumed the new oil would help further clean the internals until the next oil service. Using the old oil seemed counterintuitive.  Hmm. that's got me thinking again. I might have to go back and see if I can find it.

My apologies for any confusion. Stephen (novicebutnice)

This may help mate, whilst my version doesn't use these products it does show the principles behind it :-)
 

 

But, if you change the oil very regularly and don't have any known existing sludge issues, than adding a flush to the mostly still good oil should be ok (though I would still run a cheap semi-synthetic oil to rinse the engine to get any residual cleaners out):

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Novicebutnice

[campbeam]

Nice to know that there is another current Forum member trying different engine oils and refining their own engine desludging procedure appropriate for their vehicle. 

Definitely worthwhile to view those YouTube videos about the BG Engine Cleaning products. I had forgotten about having to idle the engine @2500 rpm for 40 minutes for one product. Interesting point about cleaning the screens for the oil control valves. I have previously done this but many oil changes ago. It may be another explanation of why my Aurion is performing a bit better after a recent engine oil and ATF change. 

Knowing what I know now, it would have been worthwhile to spend the $$$ on those BG Engine Cleaners. I had another online search and located this eBay listing: 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/254914126692?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=254914126692&targetid=1281016438476&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9069315&poi=&campaignid=9767741261&mkgroupid=124341098602&rlsatarget=pla-1281016438476&abcId=578876&merchantid=7364522&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4eaJBhDMARIsANhrQADtKU8zHn70EEN1dJzG82dYiigL6E4OJCRz_a9mHCO_tre6rGZNVxQaAvPjEALw_wcB 

$250 AUD is a fair bit of change but worthwhile for those 2GR-FE engines with accumulated oil sludge issues e.g. blowing white smoke on startup. 

I think that I will have to consider at the next oil change planning upon adding 200ml of ATF to the engine oil, going for an hour drive on the highway then very cautiously doing an oil change while the engine oil is very hot. 

[campbeam]

Latest video by The Car Nut demonstrates why the oil change interval needs to be shorter. 5000 miles is equivalent to approx. 8000 kms. Interesting that this is a recent engine with port injection. Issue is further exacerbated by engine idling time so that hours of operation can be a more appropriate mearure than the convenient odometer reading.

Certainly demonstrates the point that oil is cheap compared to expensive engine repairs or replacement. 

  

[Tony Prodigy]

3 hours ago, campbeam said:

Latest video by The Car Nut demonstrates why the oil change interval needs to be shorter. 5000 miles is equivalent to approx. 8000 kms. Interesting that this is a recent engine with port injection. Issue is further exacerbated by engine idling time so that hours of operation can be a more appropriate mearure than the convenient odometer reading.

So true. 5000 miles should be the absolute tops when doing many short trips and it should be even shorter for those who spend hours in traffic. One who doesn't deviate from the same driving routine should already know when they need to do their oil. The operative word being "should". Sadly many simply don't and carry on blissfully unaware the potential sludge factory that they are operating will one day come home to roost. Especially those who were gullible enough to take the hook line and sinker deal from the dealer's "fixed price" servicing and stupid log book oil change intervals.

[ZZT86]

Sacrilege ! The elements over in parts of the US also don't do it any favours externally.

[campbeam]

Bit slow in viewing this recent YouTube video by Scotty.

I am not so sure about the change of oil viscosity. I can more readily appreciate the benefits from changing the oil at 5000 miles [8000 kms] rather than extending the oil change interval. It makes sense that the more contaminated the oil, the greater the potential for engine wear. 

 

[ZZT86]

He cracks 🤣 me up every time, now batting for Honda, which I agree make lovely cars anyhow 👍

[campbeam]

Just viewed this YouTube Video about synthetic oil. What caught my attention near the end of this video was a presentation graph titled "Motor Oil Life". Interesting or deliberate oversight in that the time scale line is left blank. Guess that you have to interprete the graph and draw your own conclusions. For me, it indicates that there is an optimal time period for the life of the motor oil at which point it should be changed. Leaving it too late has too many disadvantages particularly for engine wear and protection.

 

[campbeam]

Following is another YouTube video by The Car Nut. Most of the video is about inspecting the engine block to see whether it is worthwhile for the customer to keep or change vehicles. At the 24 minute mark, he mentions the oil change interval. Draw your own conclusions but changing oil every 6 months seems to be a good benchmark.

In hindsight, the owner should have serviced the vehicle more regularly.

 

[KAA]

Thanks Ashley, I watched it last night, as always he explains things very clearly and the section using the probe showed what can come of badly maintained  engine's and the oil change intervals being ignored as in this case over 6 months late for the last one. Good and informative reliable experts should always be listened too, 

Thanks mate

KAA

[campbeam]

Finally noticed this YouTube video by The Car Nut released back in Feb.2022. Definitely worth your time.

After viewing this video, I am going to be making changes to how I maintain my vehicle.

I am quite satisfied that I am on the right track for a shorter oil change interval that is appropriate for my short distance driving.

I have been changing the ATF too often. Also guilty of using ATF in the power steering so time to reconsider that practice.

 

[ZZT86]

Interesting views on ATF fluid change practices. I'm guessing he don't recommend full flushes then but rather a drain & refill @ 50-80K kms? What if the car is still newish & the clutches have hardly worn to negate suspended debris assistance, ie: no clutch wear & new fluid ? What about potentially overheated fluid ?

I don't have a great deal of experience when it comes to Automatics except for my previous MCV20R Camry. And throughout it's 18 years it had it's ATM serviced often & at 16 years when I purchased it I did a full flush on it & can only say good things for the shift feel & the way it performed mechanically, although it had only traveled a mere 130K kms.

How's your Aurion going @Tony Prodigy ?

Great heads up also relating to Coolant & what's really happening when it starts to degrade. Now I'm real keen on one of them acidity testers to keep an eye on the coolant. My Aurion service book is calling for the fluid to be changed @ 150K kms or 90 months which seems like an awfully long time when it was 40K kms in my Celica 😐  Struth - SLLC.

Edited May 19 by ZZT86
coolant info

[Tony Prodigy]

17 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Interesting views on ATF fluid change practices. I'm guessing he don't recommend full flushes then but rather a drain & refill @ 50-80K kms?

Some people are against full flushing and I don't really see the reason why. The way I did it was to pan drain first, clean the pan and magnets, install new filter and gasket then fill the transmission and simply allow the "removed" return line to drain a portion of the fluid at a time, say 1lt per cycle. After it's drained that litre, I turn the engine off, refill the transmission with say 1.5lt of ATF and go again. I repeat the process until the fluid comes reddish new as it comes in the bottle. Once you're satisfied with the flush, top it up and do your fluid level adjustment as per the procedure and Job done. 

Doing it this way fully removes or mostly removes the degraded fluid, be it overheated or what not. No need to worry about any ferrous material as those pan magnets take care of those and as for clutch material, to be honest, I didn't see anything other than slightly discoloured fluid. My fluid still had the reddish tinge to it even after all those Kays. Even the original filter was clean and no particulate to be found. So the tranny was in excellent shape to begin with and I think I did it a great service by refreshing the entire fluid.

If the transmission had brown (burnt) fluid in it, it's had a hard life and I'd probably err on the side of caution and probably start with a pan drain. I think this is most likely what they are talking about when they advocate against a full flush. It could be full of garbage and flushing it could move all that particulate around and potentially cause more damage. I suspect it's the "power flushing" machines they hook up to them is probably what causes the issues, not the flush method I used. If you force the fluid in then yes it is likely to shake things up, but if you fill it then dump it they way I did it, then it's the gentler way I reckon. Doesn't stir anything up. Simply top up, start engine and drain via the return line. Repeat process.

I wouldn't be too concerned about a full flush on our cars because we know they are well taken care of and not neglected or abused. I feel better knowing all the fluid is clean rather than mixing new with old. I know it's ok to do, it's just not what I prefer to do.

Now that I have the fresh Penrite ATF in it, a yearly or two yearly pan drain will suffice to keep it in check. Depending on kays. 

17 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

How's your Aurion going @Tony Prodigy ?

I had a recent CEL if you saw my post on that, and looks like one air/fuel sensor has thrown a code. The car doesn't feel any different, but for the sake of keeping it in good order I have ordered a brand new OEM Denso sensor and will be replacing it soon.

Another small issue is one of the idler pully bearings is starting to make a slight squeal on cold start, so I'll have to look into that a bit further when time allows.

Other than those, Car is great and drives perfectly. New tyres recently too makes it especially nicer.

 

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Another small issue is one of the idler pully bearings is starting to make a slight squeal on cold start, so I'll have to look into that a bit further when time allows.

I am sure that you will be able to locate the posts for removing and repacking the sealed idler pulley bearings. Leave it too long and you may have the added expense of new bearings.

[ZZT86]

Thank You Tony, very detailed & informative as always. In fact I think you hit the nail directly on the head regarding the flushing method for cars which are poorly looked after. Those cars will definitely experience ATM issues when it goes from a coked up fluid which becomes assistive in gear changes to a brand new fluid which may cause clutch slip. Our cars are hardly going to experience that, at least that you & I think. I will flush as per previous plans, should be just dandy :)

Actually I've been damn lazy for quite a while, I blame it on covid & lockdowns for months, sick to death of it all really. But now that I'm free I can't be bothered, or as they say "cbf" 😐

At least I did the fuel filter canister in the 86 the other day including 4xO-Rings which I had in stock, which is damn similar to the Aurions setup so I know what to expect there when it comes time to doing that. Pretty easy in the end, similar to all the other in-tank canisters I've done in Celicas & Camrys except for the big fat locking ring on top which holds it all down as opposed to a ******* load of bolts (which I prefer) & the filter in a basket type arrangement as opposed to just a canister where everything just hangs off it. Overkill imo, for whatever reason. ps: the locking ring needs to be damn tight otherwise there will be a fuel leakage. Ask me how I know this 🙄

[Tony Prodigy]

13 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Thank You Tony, very detailed & informative as always. In fact I think you hit the nail directly on the head regarding the flushing method for cars which are poorly looked after. Those cars will definitely experience ATM issues when it goes from a coked up fluid which becomes assistive in gear changes to a brand new fluid which may cause clutch slip.

My pleasure. Yep, those older cooked trannies do rely on the gunked up fluid to assist gear changing. Funny that lol..

13 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Actually I've been damn lazy for quite a while, I blame it on covid & lockdowns for months, sick to death of it all really. But now that I'm free I can't be bothered, or as they say "cbf" 😐

Haha, I hear you brother.

13 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

ps: the locking ring needs to be damn tight otherwise there will be a fuel leakage. Ask me how I know this 🙄

Yep. mate of mine took his 2020 Camry V6 in for the fuel pump recall and the numpty who did the work didn't tighten said locking ring enough and the car stunk of petrol for days until it went back. Fuel was found to have been leaking filling the cabin up with fumes. Boy oh boy !! 

[Tony Prodigy]

14 hours ago, campbeam said:

I am sure that you will be able to locate the posts for removing and repacking the sealed idler pulley bearings. Leave it too long and you may have the added expense of new bearings.

For sure Ashley. One needs to be prepared before diving in. I've got an air fuel sensor on the way too. My removal tool kit arrived. Only waiting on a thread chaser and copper anti seize compound. For such a small job, it's turning into a mission but I want to be meticulous so there's no issues. 😄

[campbeam]

12 minutes ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Only waiting on a thread chaser and copper anti seize compound.

Interestingly enough I do have a sensor thread tool but have not had to use it. I got Penrite copper anti-seize compound from SuperCheap Auto a few years ago when on special. Currently, I would be doing a price check with AutoBarn and Repco.

I am sure that your meticulous preparation will pay off.

Based upon your previous posts, I am guessing that you are quite happy to stay with your current oil change interval.

[Tony Prodigy]

29 minutes ago, campbeam said:

Based upon your previous posts, I am guessing that you are quite happy to stay with your current oil change interval.

Yes. I am happy doing it at between 7 and 8K. I have plenty of oil to get through so it makes perfect sense.

[ZZT86]

4 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Yep. mate of mine took his 2020 Camry V6 in for the fuel pump recall and the numpty who did the work didn't tighten said locking ring enough and the car stunk of petrol for days until it went back. Fuel was found to have been leaking filling the cabin up with fumes. Boy oh boy !! 

Yep except I test drive my car's after I do the work to prove its ok before I button everything & close her up. Not being satisfied with one test drive, I did another the following day & I almost instantly smelt the fumes. I filled the tank up the previous night & after deliberately trying to slosh the fuel about violently via quick left right steering manoeuvres & sudden braking she leaked & leaked well. Easy fix 👍

[campbeam]

22 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Yep except I test drive my car's after I do the work to prove its ok before I button everything & close her up. Not being satisfied with one test drive, I did another the following day & I almost instantly smelt the fumes. I filled the tank up the previous night & after deliberately trying to slosh the fuel about violently via quick left right steering manoeuvres & sudden braking she leaked & leaked well. Easy fix 👍

Excellent idea to thoroughly test what has been done particularly when you have had to do a fair bit of dismantling to get to the part to be checked/replaced. 

Something that I do after an oil change is to recheck the oil level the next weekend or a few days later.