Worth getting cams?

[CME-LFT]

Hi guys, got some money to waste, was looking at the MWR website and came across the cams, wondering if anyones had any experience with them, if its worth the dollars for the gain?

MWR Cam Set Stage 3

Piper Cams Stage 2

Piper Cams Stage 3

Im not the smartest person when it comes to cars but if i change the cams is it something that will give me more power up top?, higher rev range?.....will i sacrifice power down low? what else would you recommend doing if i was going to get them changed and so on! I know the website mentions changing the valve springs as well.

What's the difference between the stages 2 & 3?

Power difference between stock and different stages?

The car is a 2004 rolla Sportivo, 2.5" catback, ported stock headers and CAI. No computer because im a bit funny when it comes to hacking up factory wires, so keep that in mind that the cams will be running of a non tuned car if that makes sense.

I remember reading about this before but i hate the new search engine so hopefully you guys can let this slide and help me out.

Thanks all

[Rolla & Sao Boy]

" money to waste" . I know of a charity that could do with that ... me ..

[CME-LFT]

I should rephrase that, there's money i want to waste, not so much that i have money to waste.lol

[Rolla & Sao Boy]

I should rephrase that, there's money i want to waste, not so much that i have money to waste.lol

let me guess , good old tax return ?

Sorry i havent added value to this post in any way or given answers to any of your questions.I'm like you , i dont know .. But i will follow this thread to see what the educated ppl like SD and Xoom have to say.

[and1]

As I am getting a whole new head built with some new shiny bits I'll let you in with what I know.

If you don't want to run an aftermarket ecu, then the stage 2 Pipers are they way to go. Although you won't get a great gain out of them without tuning.

The stage 3 MWRs and Pipers require:

-new valves and springs

-aftermarket ecu

This is at a minimum.

If you think that it will make a drastic difference you'll be disappointed. It complements all your work on the head and engine.

[HiLift]

I have stage 3 piper cams, new valves and springs ported head with power fc and gain like 8kw atw from memory. total cost well over 3k mind you i'm sure i got riped on labour.

[SuperDave]

Piper stage 2 cams don’t require a valvetrain upgrade if redline is kept at 8200; according to MWR; the yanks still think it needs upgrading regardless so the risk is yours to take. The Piper stage 3 does require upgraded springs and valves. Since you are replacing the valves I would recommend getting the flat faced valves to compensate for the minor loss in dynamic compression ratio caused by the extra over lap from the cams. If you are looking at the Piper stage 3 cams, just save your money and get the MWR stage 3 cams, pretty much the same power curve for less money.

The cams are useless without engine management; so if you don’t want engine management, don’t get cams. Stock engine + stage 2 cams is equal to stock engine + PowerFC as far as gains go. Gains on the Piper stage 2 cams are great from 3500 rpm up to 7000 rpm. They are a bit boggy down low but are still drivable for such an aggressive profile. In 1st gear at WOT I get wheel spin from 4000 rpm to redline. For a comparison of power and torque I setup the follow image in excel. Ignore the ‘numbers’ for the torque as I couldn’t get it to correlate correctly, but the comparison is still valid.

The ported manifold might help to regain some of the lost low end. The loss is only minor, but compared to the mid range gains it exaggerates it. There is no need to hack up the factory harness either. CHA54 has a plug and play harness for the ViPEC and I can make plug and play harnesses for the PowerFC.

Did some 0-100 testing and recorded 7.8s against 7.2s before and after the cams; everything else remained the same (other than tuning obviously). Both runs were done with the PowerFC as I used it to log the runs and calculate the times based on true speed, not indicated speed.

[CME-LFT]

Thanks for the detailed responses.

Towards SD

So if your saying that stock engine with stage 2 cams is the same as stock engine with power fc then if labour was free for the cam install then it would be a cheaper alternative to get a bit of gain then changing the ecu? i take it stock with power fc still brings some gain over factory.$12-1300 for pwr fc + tuning

By ported manifold, do you mean what ive done, ported headers/extractors(i know its not the extractors ported but rather where it joins to the engine) or is it something different (sorry to be so stupid) Rough cost??

I know you make a adapter kit but dont want to have to play around with the water hose.and i think you mentioned something about a aircon? unless thats all been fixed.

Last and not least (for now) the kind of damage that would occur if it would from not using upgraded valve springs?

Thanks again

Edited August 28, 2010 by CME-LFT

[xoom]

grab me at the meet tomorrow night and we'll talk

[SuperDave]

Thanks for the detailed responses.

Towards SB

So if your saying that stock engine with stage 2 cams is the same as stock engine with power fc then if labour was free for the cam install then it would be a cheaper alternative to get a bit of gain then changing the ecu? i take it stock with power fc still brings some gain over factory.$12-1300 for pwr fc + tuning

By ported manifold, do you mean what ive done, ported headers/extractors(i know its not the extractors ported but rather where it joins to the engine) or is it something different (sorry to be so stupid) Rough cost??

I know you make a adapter kit but dont want to have to play around with the water hose.and i think you mentioned something about a aircon? unless thats all been fixed.

Last and not least (for now) the kind of damage that would occur if it would from not using upgraded valve springs?

Thanks again

SD :P SB is Silvabullit

A 'header' is a yank (incorrect mind you) terminology for manifold. So yes a ported manifold is what you have.

The yanks complain of mushrooming valves. You know how a valve side on looks like an upside down T, think of that T turning into a mushroom shape. The cause is either caused by running stiffer springs slamming the valve into the seat; or the ramp rate on the cam lobe slamming the valve into the seat. Either way I've had no problems, but I don't rev mine past 8200 rpm as recommended by MWR. The issue with the stage 3 cams is valve lift. Stock valve train maxes out at about 12mm of lift (give or take slightly due to my measurement errors). If you try and force the valve to keep opening you will damage the cam lobe. The upgraded valve springs are thinner in wire diameter, thus allowing slightly more lift. But as mentioned earlier the heavier spring rate can cause valve damage and then leads to needing stronger valves.

I'd doubt labour would be free as it is an 8 hour job to do the cams without removing the head to do the valve train. The VVT swap can easily be done wrong too, leaving you with no variable timing and having to remove the intake cam to do it again. As for the gains between PowerFC vs Cams my excel graph shows the difference tuning makes. If I had to pick one, I'd pick the ECU over cams. The aircon works fine with my harness too.

[CME-LFT]

Post edited to SD, sorry about that lol

Well that clears a bit up, and its easy enough for me to understand.

I think ill bite the bullet and consider going pwr fc, im pm you when im keen on the harness.

But in the end it wont hurt to get cams first, then pwr fc last as then i would only need to get it tuned once, but of course that asks for next years tax return as well lol ;)

Thanks for all your help !!

Hope this has helped others!!

[SuperDave]

Entirely up to you on what order you want to do the work in. But yes, getting cams before the aftermarket ECU is a better idea as you will only need tuning once. Also, while I remember, the cams actually require lift to be moved higher, or stay the same. It's to do with the optimum change over point changing due to the lower cam being slightly better up top than stock. For example my lift is at 6200 rpm, while Dad with stock cams is at 5600 rpm, same tuner on both ECUs. But don't get too much into earlier lift is better as it is dependent on the engine and when the low cam stops making power.

[matt_glad]

I would replace the valves and springs first before cams.

The factory springs are only 40lb and are the cause of many a broken engine.

Supertech 70lb (MWR 9500+) are good but will require machining the head to use with stage 3 cams

Eibach 60lb (MRW race) are also good and will work perfect with stage 3

MWR 3 Stage are very aggressive and are the best choice for low cam and big cam

Edited August 29, 2010 by matt_glad

[matt_glad]

The issue with the stage 3 cams is valve lift. Stock valve train maxes out at about 12mm of lift (give or take slightly due to my measurement errors). If you try and force the valve to keep opening you will damage the cam lobe. The upgraded valve springs are thinner in wire diameter, thus allowing slightly more lift. But as mentioned earlier the heavier spring rate can cause valve damage and then leads to needing stronger valves

I tested this, too :)

[robie]

I have stage 3 piper cams, new valves and springs ported head with power fc and gain like 8kw atw from memory. total cost well over 3k mind you i'm sure i got riped on labour.

turbo charge for 3x the money you get 10x the power