Didn't Honda have the CRX in the late 1980s and they had the B16A which made 170bhp or 125kw. My mate had one imported from Japan and the car weighs around 900kg. That would wup a 4AGE then wouldn't it? Even the non VTEC CRX had 96kw. The B16A2 came about in the early nineties into the Civics and Oz got them with 118kw. The BEAMS 3S-GE (2L, 215bhp) is a good engine especially in the Altezza rear wheel drive, but i don't agree it demolishes most other N/A variants. Honda produced 250bhp in the 1999 S2000 remember? Okay, maybe the S2000 is in a league of its own. Ho about the 4 door Honda Accord Type-S in Japan? It also made 220bhp and i have a VCD with it handling and accelerating better than the Altezza. Just beat the Altezza at the top end with the VTEC lift, and they weigh about the same! If you haven't noticed, I said I like the 2ZZ and it would probably be my first pick now (considering I'm not a big fan of turbo) but it's not without its weak points. I think it's tough comparing Honda to Toyota. Honda is more aggressive with their engine designs - the S2000 and DC2 Type R Integra were factory modified with head work, forged pistons, etc before arriving on our shores. So if you strike a direct comparison with the 3S or 2ZZ which are not, it's not entirely fair. 3S doesnt even have lift from memory. Lotus has managed to pull about an extra 10HP and a little extra torque from the 2ZZ by simply fooling around with the ECU. Theyve also adjust the 6 speed ratios to make better use of Lift. I'm positive these changes will be seen on the next model Toyotas.