johnydep

Thanks JD for your honest approach to this thread. Like yourself, I am a multiple Forum member,as are several other prominment members of this forum (you know who you are !!!).We all have our vehicle loyalities but who's to say we don't own both? We take the ***** out of the "other" manufactures because in some small way it helps to justify in our own mind our purchase of that particular vehicle which I'm sure nobody took lightly before they signed on the dotted line. I am equally positive that no member of either forum would wish any mishap/problem onto another manufacturer or their followers because as wev'e all seen numerous times, tomorrow it may happen to us !! We are all here to sing the praises of our particular Make and model but also to learn it's weaknesses and more importantly to share these thoughts and experiences with our cyber friends so we can all learn. At the end of the day we all want to enjoy our cars to the fullest whatever they are.

I think that "Terra Australis" may be right...

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WOW!!!!! johnydep... followed the link you put up for the toyota site...introduced me to an entire new world ...maybe we should invite them on our next cruise and show them how much fun we have in our Territories...

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I think we should all get together and have a "Bloody Good Weekend" United we stand and show the "stealers" we mean buisiness.(and take the ***** in person)

A friendly cruise would be great, maybe even a combined thread

Saw a Territory driver of the type I mentioned a couple of days ago. He was driving along, opening and closing his door. Each time he closed it, seemed to be more forceful than the last.

Pulled up next to him at the lights and asked him what the hell he was doing. Turns out his drivers door has dropped and the latch doesn't quite line up properly. This is a problem that has haunted Ford since the early 70's and I'm suprised they haven't got it sorted out yet. On the other hand, if you buy a Holden, expect the glovebox to fall out.

This is my first Toyota, anyone with more experience know what they are renown for?

Mmmm <_< Haven't heard of that one on either the Territory or the Falcon BA - BF (use the same hinges). Hope it's not about to be a common fault, I'll ask the lads at http://www.fordforums.com.au

OK, this is what I found out -

I had that problem, when the window fell down the clip wouldnt let the door shut..

I've had that too. Was repaired by the Dealers under the TSB (when my car was under warranty). I've never heard of door dropping, and I've been in and out of Falcons since the 80's.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11212025

Unresolved "rolled by Wheels magazine" story... :D

Saw a Territory driver of the type I mentioned a couple of days ago. He was driving along, opening and closing his door. Each time he closed it, seemed to be more forceful than the last.

Pulled up next to him at the lights and asked him what the hell he was doing. Turns out his drivers door has dropped and the latch doesn't quite line up properly. This is a problem that has haunted Ford since the early 70's and I'm suprised they haven't got it sorted out yet. On the other hand, if you buy a Holden, expect the glovebox to fall out.

This is my first Toyota, anyone with more experience know what they are renown for?

Mmmm <_< Haven't heard of that one on either the Territory or the Falcon BA - BF (use the same hinges). Hope it's not about to be a common fault, I'll ask the lads at http://www.fordforums.com.au

I am surprised that there's something in Kluger's ride that seems to be better than Territory. I'm being sracastic here but - and there's no intention to start a war here but - reading AU car reviews I developed an impression that Territory's ride is supreme and very few / if any cars in the category of family SUV (including - according to reviewers - much more expensive eruopean models) can compete with Ford Territory there.

The Australian motoring press has had a long standing love affair with the Territory and heaven forbid anyone that says a bad word about it. On the other hand, say a bad thing about the Falcon and you'll find them cheering for you from the rooftops and shouting "Go the Commodore". I mean, how can anyone take the Aussie motoring journalists seriously when they try and convince us that the VE Commodore is a better car than a 5 series Beemer?

Personally, I find that the territory is a bit too soft and squishy for my liking, perfect for most of the lard ****d people that buy them I suppose.

The Kluger could certainly have some improvements made - I'd like to see the front end tightened up a little and have some of the lack of feel through the wheel sorted out - but give me the Kluger suspension and body roll any day over the Ford.

I for one am not in the slightest bit interested in buying a car based on reviews. The only way to buy a car is to find one or two that tick all the boxes, drive them, speak to other owners, then buy the one you like the most.

<_< I hate to break your ill-conceived perception. I own a Territory, purchased at the age of 37 and I am very fit & muscular.

The Kluger has excellent suspension for what it was designed for; off-road work & city driving.

Remember that the Territory is has been round for a few years now. The vehicle was designed with the idea that most SUVs do not leave the bitumen, so one of the main design factors was to build a SUV that handled & rode as closely to a sedan as possible; low centre of gravity, four wheel independent suspension, medium profile tyres, relocated steering rack.

It was one of the first and so captured the eyes and hearts of a lot of people. Wheels magazine help prove some of the Territory benefit with their WHEELS ACTIVE SAFETY PROGRAM back in 2005 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=29525

I'm sure that the new Kluger has similar dynamics to the Territory, however it does have a few things against it; higher centre of gravity, weight distribution and on the Grand - low profile tyres.

Enjoy your Kluger, Toyota produce nice vehicles.

Sorry that I use the word flash memory wrong. I am not a computer person. I think we are talking about a different size of the memory it store. ........

I feel that we are going around in circles, this shal be my last post on the subject!

Many times you have inadvertently highlighted the inadequacy of Toyota's response to the Wheels Magazine claims!

Toyota could not have gathered any information from the ECU that could possibly clear the company of any responsibility to a safety issue, and pass the blame onto a second party. That is why Toyota are not releasing any information of what was gathered from the memory of the ECU.

I don't care if it's Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Ford or whoever if a car magazine highlights a fault such as Wheels has, the vehicle manufacturer should release any and all information ASAP to the buying public. To hold back certain material and to issue unsubstantiated information, is highly suspect.

This is not the first time a manufacturer has had something to hide. The big three in the US had major court cases over safety issues hidden then brought to light by fatalities, Mitsubishi hid faulty mechanical parts on thier vehicles for 10 years.

If enough consumers turn a blind eye, manufacturers will take the gamble and stay silent. It's happened before, re Mitsubishi.

Anyone that owns a Kluger should be making a request to Toyota for assurances that the VSC wll operate in all conditions and instantaneously, get it in writing. If they do that, with reasonable wording, all is good.

When I purchased my vehicle, safety was the first issue; the stability control and air bags helped me make a decision to purchase the safest vehicle that I could afford to ensure the safety of my family. I would not want that compromised.

EDIT: The ECU with 1Mb of flash memory is 6 years old now, new ECU's have greater memory. Also, if you read the article it states that the ECU's "offer memory expansion, which allows designers to add external discrete memory capacity."

And just because you have a scan tool does not mean you can access all the info. To gather all the data available from OBDII vehicles requires a scan tool with all the vehicle manfacturers code.

There is also some interesting development in the heavy vehicle industry; http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/facts-research/re...ec05/appn-b.htm

As for hard drives, what about flash memory? Small, compact and huge memory capabilities.

It was a joke. I don't think there is any needle ticking inside the ECU.

Flash memory is expensive. No I doubt even the porsches have that sort of detail data.

I have the scan tool in my computer for my RX-8, there is minimal data collected by the ECU in modern Japanese sports car. I wonder how much will be recorded in a family SUV

Vehicle manufacturers have been using Flash Memory for several years. The more advanced systems record & store data, including code excecution & sensor input.

A quick Google and I found an old Mitsi Electrical ECU that has Flash memory, etc.

Mitsubishi Electric’s New 32-Bit Automotive MCU Offers

Industry’s Largest Flash Memory Capacity October 2, 2002

Large-Capacity Flash Memory

The new M32R/ECU devices offer large DINOR flash memory capacity to increase productivity at the development of manufacturing stages, and to contribute to improved maintainability in the field. The M32R/ECU#5 offers 1,024 Kbytes of flash memory with 48 Kbytes of RAM, and the M32R/ECU#5HL offers 384 Kbytes of flash memory and 64 Kbytes of RAM. Both devices offer memory expansion, which allows designers to add external discrete memory capacity.

Mitsubishi Electric’s DINOR flash memory enables customers to program using a single 3.3- or 5.0-volt power supply. Designers can program quickly at a rate of 64 Kbytes every two seconds, regardless of the operating frequency. The devices support serial programming or software-based CPU programming as well as block erase and collective erase modes, giving designers more flexibility. The flash memory even provides a security function that protects against unauthorized readout or modification by any third party.

JTAG Interface With Tracing Development Tool

The new M32R/ECU devices incorporate a special tracing tool into the JTAG interface to streamline the code debugging process. The tool captures many clock cycles of code execution history so that designers can quickly narrow a coding problem to its source and make corrections, enabling faster time-to-market development.

Broad Development Tools Support

The M32R/ECU family is supported by proprietary and third-party development tools, such as system modeling software, real-time operating systems, C code generators, debugging and data calibration, and flash programming tools.

According to Toyota they do have data!

Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels."

I'm sure Toyota Japan are disecting the info right now. We may get some answers soon, all of it if owners start emailing Toyota for answers.

I doubt even the most advance ECU in the world will have all the data available. I know as a fact in my Mazda RX-8 there is only recorded any Trouble Codes, any over speeding, and over reving of engines.

I doubt there will be much about the speed at the time if it is 100kmh, steering angle or even if traction control is activated (at the time). They only would know if it is working because there is no code recorded in the car saying it is not.

If there is such info in the car, there must a hard disc in the ECU

If you are correct then I can only assume that Toyota are, at best, playing with words and at worst, telling untruths - Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels." Did Wheels Mag mention fault codes or activated fault light?

The Toyota statement indicates that Toyota Tech extracted information form the ECU and found a story different to the Wheels explanation; how could they come to this conclusion?

The plot thickens, Toyota must release the information.

As for hard drives, what about flash memory? Small, compact and huge memory capabilities.

In an ideal world Wheel and Toyota should work together and see if there is any improvement can be done to the ESC system.. But of course we live in a harsh reality world, so chance of that happen now after the news broke off will be slim... :(

They have no data on the skid and the crash is less than useful to Toyota..........

According to Toyota they do have data!

Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels."

I'm sure Toyota Japan are disecting the info right now. We may get some answers soon, all of it if owners start emailing Toyota for answers.

The problem is Johny that ESP will not 100% save you. There is no guarantee in life. That is the message I am going to put out to the forums.

Wheels magazine portrait the traction and stability control works like magic and fool prove. They have not considered the dynamics of skid and I think that is the problem. Who can assure me that the dirt/gravel tract that they use have even grip across the whole track, particularly where he lost control. Now, that is my point! When there is sudden lost of grip beyond control, no one, including the perfect DSC/ESP/VDC can save it.

True; "There is no guarantee in life."

There is no guarantee that a dirt/gravel track will have even grip across the whole track. This is why VSC was invented, to help improve the drivers chances when safe conditions can not be guaranteed.

The ESP should have detected the test vehicles slide, sensors should have sent information to the ECU and the ECU should have applied individual brakes, which is easily noticed by the driver, in an attempt to bring the vehicle back under control. There is no guarantee that the VSC will stop a crash, but there should be an attempt).

Something went wrong, the fault can only lie with either the driver or the Kluger Vehicle Stability Control; Wheels have given us thier side of the story, now Toyota must release the information gathered from the ECU and explain thier side of the story. Until that happens this incident should be treated as a safety issue for all current model Kluger's.

Electronic Stability Control

Operation

ESC compares the driver's intended direction (by measuring steering angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (by measuring lateral acceleration, rotation (yaw) and individual wheel speeds). If the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering, ESC then brakes individual front or rear wheels and/or reduces excess engine power as needed to help correct understeer (plowing) or oversteer (fishtailing).

ESC incorporates yaw angle control into anti-lock brakes. Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. ESC may also incorporate traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained.

ESC cannot override a car's physical limits. If a driver pushes the vehicle's traction limits too far, ESC cannot prevent a crash. It is a tool to help the driver maintain control using available traction.

ESP = Electronic Stability Control in car, not ESP = Extra-sensory perception, a paranormal ability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP

The car CANNOT anyway in the world know what you think.

ESP is a very simple system, sensors to sense wheel spin/and yaw sensors and it either apply brakes or cut fuel to suit it.

The new BMW X6 will have different torque application to each wheel. That is just slightly more complicated.

What makes me laugh is one person in the ford forum

http://www.fordforums.com.au/printthread.php?t=11206821

"I'm not blaming Toyota specifically, but give me a rational reason why the kluger did flip and why the ESP didn't intervene when it should have and why no other similar vehicles rolled over during test and i'll shut up!"

He did not read the article and treat the forum like conversation in the pub. He did not realise that his misunderstanding has gone in the public world (google). Don't embrass yourself. Post something clever.

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Hi, I'm an ex-Toyota owner and have a lot of respect for the company, but I'm here to comment on the Kluger rollover with concern for safety and to fight propaganda.

There really is no misunderstanding of what happened. Vehicle Dynamic Control is designed to assist the driver in the unfortunate situation of losing control, ie over steer, under steer, slide.

The Wheels driver forced the vehicle into a slide to test the effectiveness of the VDC, it did not operate as the driver was accustomed to from other vehicle systems.

The roleover is just a distraction, the real worry is that the VDC did not activate in a reasonble time frame. I have been a driver of a vehicle that went into a slide and the VDC has assisted me bring the vehicle back into line, it was so fast it took me a few moments to work out what had happened.

Please don't look at this as an attack on the Kluger, try and understand the safety ramifications. This could happen to any vehicle manufacturer, it must be investigated thoroughly in the name of safety and consumerism.

I don't see what the big fuss is about going 60mph. Out here, in KS, thats usually as low as the speed limit is, but people still go faster.

Your right Eric, ANY system will not be able to defy the laws a physics. That being said, I have a hard time understanding why the system didn't kick in. If you read the article on that site, you will notice that he is not a novice driver on that course. They were at the Holden Proving Grounds which he says that he has driven several times before. He also noted that the system was sporadic during the testing prior to the incident. He said that he had the car sideway at an estimated 85-95KPH. The question is not "could the system get him out of the slide without flipping", I would be amazed see as that probably would have been a miracle of itself, but why the system let him get so far without intervening? After the wheels popped and demounted from the tires, there was nothing the system or the driver could do. Also, he never noted that he was off the road during the slide.

He also noted that there were other vehicles that attributed poor system response, but none of the other ones would let him get as far as he did with the Toyota.

It is not that there is no job done to remove all the variables and make all the have to enter the same exact way etc, it is why did the Toyota system let him get so far sideways and never respond? These systems should all be able to respond within milliseconds of driver and car input and be able to correct before the driver knows that they is in trouble. As I'm sure you know, its not easy to put a car in a slide at those speeds, but with todays computers on cars controlling everything from the throttle to the brakes, and the driver just inputing requests to the PCM before it is approved, the question still remains as to why the system let him get so far sideways and still did nothing?