Sat Nav

[BandE]

Previous Ford Territory owner.

Picked up the Kluger Grande Dec 09 - small pluses and minuses with each vehicle but, overall, like them both.

Problem

Kluger Sat Nav - I set addresses for an interstate trip; all travel on main (sealed) highways - most country towns by-passed.

Travel time shown on Sat Nav read out was almost double the actual time required whenever the trip included travel on highways - didn't matter which of the 3 route options I selected.

Went into Sat Nav 'set up', enabled travel on all roads (except 'seasonal access') and adjusted the 'Freeway' setting higher & lower which had minimal or no influence on travel time calculation.

However, when I adjusted the 'City' setting it did change the travel time calculation.

Conclusion: - Sat Nav was using the 'City' speed setting on highways along the route to calculate travel time.

Either the map disc has the wrong speed / speed-code on highways, the Sat Nav unit can't read highway speeds / speed/codes on the maps or there is a malfunction in the calculation formula.

The Toyota sales staff found the same problem in other Klugers on the showroom floor and the Toyota Service Manager found the same condition in his 3 y o Kluger.

Fujitsu (who make the Sat Nav) say it is a mapping problem.

Toyota are supposedly looking into it but three months have passed without any helpful response.

Anyone else have this problem?

Any other suggestions?

[BandE]

Should have asked "Does anyone have a Kluger Sat Nav that gives an accurate travel time on highway travel? If so, what year is your Kluger?"

[Freewuns]

Given the Kluger speedo under reads by 9kmh at 100kmh and the system uses both mechanical speed and GPS speed for calculations, adjsting the three settings can compensate a little for this.

Hard to do nowadays in city areas, but to setup correctly you would ideally need 10kms of road with no stop lights or signs and setup/adjust that way if you wanted everything perfect for each type of road.

I have mine as good as it will get and is pretty close to my Garmin unit.

I have usually found most GPS units start with a higher estimated time to travel and gradually decreases further into the trip.

Mine is an 08 Grande with v15 Whereis

Edited April 19, 2010 by Freewuns

[BandE]

Thank you.

I have adjusted the 'three settings'. The first two affect the Sat Nav est travel time but the third (highway/freeway) setting does nothing even when 90% + of the journey is on 100kph sealed roads.

Once under way, the Sat Nav does use the 'mechanical speed' to adjust the est travel time however it is not a single all-at-once adjustment to the total est travel time - the adjustment is 'continuous' i.e. after 10 minutes of actual on-road (highway) travel, est travel time has reduced by approx 18 mins. So, on a 10 hour highway trip (real time), sat nav indicates around 18 hours at the outset, about 9 hours at the halfway point and about 1 3/4 hours when 1 hour from destination.

As you point out, if I adjust the second (city streets) setting to the max, then sat nav gets closer to the mark on country trips - but any city travel (say, in an interstate capital where I would like to have an idea of the cross town travel time) is completely wrong. Why do we need to compromise functions to create a more realistic answer?

It just seems the sat nav does not 'read' the speed limit / code on highways in order to use the third setting in travel time calculations. My disc is v16.

I also have a Garmin unit with no manual speed adjustments available to the user however the trip travel time calculations are amazingly accurate - country and city driving.

I would really like to hear that someone has a Kluger sat nav that actually works as per the manual - that is, adjust the 'three settings' to standard speeds for side streets, city driving and freeway speeds and the est travel time for across town or a country run are calculated using the correct setting speed on the appropriate sections of the designated route. No compensating.

[toyocar]

I tried out the Satnav over the Anzac day weekend, driving from Sydney to Ulladulla and back. I took a portable TomTom for comparison, and boy, did it drive the family mad! Two sets of voices, telling us when and where to turn. Usually, the Kluger GPS voice came on first, followed by the Tom Tom, making it sound like an echo.

On the Princes Highway, the Kluger GPS did not use the highway speed, and kept interpreting it as a city road (avg speed of 50kmph) and over-estimated the travel time. On the way back, however, I came back through Moss Vale and got on to the Hume Highway. On the Hume Highway, it interpreted it as a highway (avg speed of 90 kmph), and was much more accurate on the timings.

BTW, I have a Gen 1 (2006) Kluger Grande, using Sensis map v15.

Interestingly, when I took the car on unsealed roads to Pebbly beach, the Kluger GPS got lost completely, and kept showing my position significantly away from the road I was supposed to be on. The Tom Tom, albeit with a weak signal, still plotted my position quite accurately.

[Freewuns]

I'm goin on a 450km roundtrip tomorrow to Brisbane which includes about 130kms of 110kmh zones and about 200kms of 100kmh and rest in 60-80 zones. I know when I go to the Oz Zoo Animal Hospital most of the road is 110kmh and is a 35km trip (one way). GPS initial time estimate drops by about 4 mins to when I get there.

I have adjusted the highway speed selection to 115kmh and the other to 80kmh and will check the results tomorrow and adjust again for the trip back and see what happens. Hopefully the trusty Brissy gridlock wont get in my way too much.

Will let you know what happens.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Freewuns

[BandE]

Basically, these episodes confirm my opinion that: -

1. Sat Nav unit does not read the correct road speed-limit from the map disc, especially highways but not every highway

2. This problem has existed for several Kluger models (hard to believe the problem has not been noticed somewhere)

3. Others (Garmin, Tom Tom) correctly calculate travel times on the same routes.

Fujitsu (manufacturer of the Sat Nav unit) representative insists it is a mapping (Sensis) problem but that view is not 'tested' - merely the answer to a telephone query.

Either way, Toyota are selling a vehicle with an advertised feature that does not work properly. Toyota should invistigate and remedy.

Toyota will only act if numerous Dealerships report the problem.

Accordingly, it is up to owners to press our respective Dealers to complete a formal report to Toyota - more reports = action.

Still interested to see how your trip goes, Freewun.

Cheers

[Freewuns]

The trip I did yesterday basically found that the highway speed settings in the GPS setup have no effect as to trip times! When I left Sunny Coast the trip time did the usual estimate, and as the travel progressed, the eta also decreased by up to 10 mins until I hit Bris traffic! This was with the highway/freeway setting at 120kph (max) and I did the trip at 110kph and 100kph (as per speedo) in the relevant zones.

As I had it setup for freeway at 120kph you would assume that the eta would have started to increase as I was travelling at under the settings.

Trip back was little or no traffic and I changed the setting from 120kph to 5kph for freeway prior to departure. Prior to getting onto the freeway I was mainly in 80 or 90 zones and the GPS was very accurate and the eta didnt change. Given I had set it for 5kph on freeways, you would have expected the eta to be days away at 5kph prior to departure. But alas, it was the same eta from the trip down.

I have reached the same conclusion as you BandE in that the freeway settings are pretty much ignored. Seems the Kluger Sat Nav only works properly when you are doing 80 or 90kph!!

I will talk to my local Toyota centre and see if they can make a tech report of some description.

[BandE]

Hello T O C members

Sorry to report a new glitch has developed in my Kluger Grande Sat Nav (Dec 2009 v16).

Needed to make a simple (all highway - no sightseeing) interstate trip Adel to Sydney staying at a harbourside inner suburban hotel - not very familiar with Sydney.

Tried to input address of the hotel - Sat Nav would not accept the change from S.A. to another State (which is the essential first step required when inputting an interstate address), therefore could not get the address into the unit.

Thought my 'Home Address' was causing some sort of lock-out so deleted 'Home Address'. No help.

Thought the 'Time Zone' might be a conflicting factor - tried to change 'Time Zone' but this also would not accept.

Started the journey and stayed overnight in NSW. Tried all of the above again with the same outcome - nothing would enable addresses outside of S.A. to accept.

Used my 5 y.o. Garmin to get to Sydney hotel.

Finally (and obviously too late to be of any use) saved the hotel address into Sat Nav via the cursor current-location function. Tried to input other Sydney addresses that I needed - still no success. Moved the cursor to the addresses and saved them into Sat Nav.

Very frustrating.

To recap my problems, I purchased the Kluger Grande and specifically wanted a vehicle with built-in Sat Nav having used a window-attached Garmin for a few years in my previous vehicle. I felt the suction marks from the Garmin were an invitation to would-be thieves that a GPS unit was proabably in the glove box.

The Toyota Sat Nav immediately proved defective in that it could not correctly calculate an estimated travel time. This has been investigated by my Dealership and relayed to Toyota Australia via a Technical Report which supposedly initiates remedial action. As a consequence of (this Website) feedback and discussions with other Toyota owners, I am of the opinion that this problem has existed for a number of years covering several models and Sat Nav / mapping updates AND I suspect that Toyota have been aware of the situation for much of that time.

Now, it seems my defect extends to some sort of 'lock-out' in respect to Time Zone and destinations outside of my home State.

My 10k service is due and I will book in for next week giving a full description of these developments.

I would be happy to include other anecdotes: -

Has anyone experienced the same condition?

Has anyone managed to overcome the problem?

Has anyone NOT experienced this problem?

Cheers

[BandE]

An update.

In the absence of any action as a consequence of lodging 'reports' to my Dealership and they in turn sending 'reports' to Toyota Aust, I have written to Toyota seeking something more positive.

A copy of my letter is attached.

A copy of the Toyota response is attached.

Not exactly the 'positive' outcome I was hoping to achieve.

A copy of my subsequent (but fairly spontaneous) follow up is also attached.

Any comments or other assistance would be gratefully received.

Meanwhile, any developments will be reported.

Cheers

Edited October 22, 2010 by BandE

[BandE]

SILLY ME.

THE ATTACHMENT FUNCTION DOESN'T ACCEPT MY FILES.

THEREFORE COPIES BELOW WITH A FEW 'IMAGES' MISSING BUT THE OVERALL SUBSTANCE IS STILL FAIRLY CLEAR.

HERE'S MY LETTER TO TOYOTA WITH THE DEALERSHIP CORRESPONCE APPENDED: -

The Manager Customer Relations PO Box 187 Caringbah NSW 1495 30 August 2010

Dear Sir TOYOTA KLUGER GRANDE Purchased December 2009

I have a problem with the Satellite Navigation Guidance System in the Toyota Kluger that I purchased in December 2009. The problem was reported to the Dealership (Cornes Toyota) in January 2010 and, since there had been no remedy, a letter was emailed to the Dealership in March 2010. A copy of the letter is appended to this correspondence.

I will endeavour to describe the Sat Nav problem and include a specific instance with photographs that hopefully will assist find a solution.

The Toyota Sat Nav comes with adjustable ‘Speed Settings’ in the Maintenance menu. The categories for

the settings are ‘Residential’ (stated to be suburban side streets), ‘Main Street’ (stated to be suburb to suburb major through roads) and ‘Freeway’ (out-of-city travelling). The standard settings are shown at left and when travelling in suburban areas, the system functions correctly and calculates a meaningful ‘Estimated Travel Time’.

However, whenever the journey includes travel on out-of-city roads such as highways, the Sat Nav will only use the ‘Main Street’ setting to calculate the ‘Estimated Travel Time’.

This not only gives very misleading travel times but also can send the driver hundreds of kilometres in the wrong direction.

Specifically, in December 2009, we travelled from Adelaide to Canberra to an address that we needed guidance to locate.

Fig 1. Fig 2. Fig 3.

The ‘Canberra’ address was input and generated the screen shown in fig 2. As you can see, the distance is shown as 1387km and the estimated travel time is nearly 18 hours. There is a choice of three routes which are shown in fig 3. The ‘quick route’ directs the driver to Melbourne and then to Canberra. The other two routes are only 1202km but are calculated to take 19 hours.

Fortunately, I was familiar with the general drive to Canberra and therefore knew that the 1202km route was not only shorter but also quicker.

So why was the Toyota Sat Nav providing wrong information?

Using the ‘Three Routes Info’ screen, I could see that the ‘quick route’ included 635km of ‘Freeway’ whereas the other routes only used 134km of ‘Freeway’.

It seems every part of the journey that is not ‘Freeway’ is designated (coded?) ‘Main Street’ and uses that speed setting to calculate the travel time. Of course, only a few kms of either route is actually on roads passing through country towns and therefore truly limited to just 60kph. However, it is evident that the ‘quick route’ calculation has included 750kms @ 60kph. On the other hand, the ‘short route’ has included 1060kms at ‘Main Street’ to calculate the estimated travelling time.

To test this premise, the ‘Speed Setting’ for ‘Main Street’ was adjusted to the maximum allowed (remembering that ‘Main Street’ is regarded as travel in built up suburban areas) which is 90kph.

The figures above show the settings and travel times - the direct route is reduced to 13hours and if it were possible to input 110kph, 11 hours. The Sat Nav ‘quick route’ reduces to about 14 hours. We used the 1202km route.

On another journey, we were seeking to travel on the Pacific Highway from Byron Bay to Sydney. The Sat Nav attempted to direct us off the highway onto secondary roads on several occasions because it does not identify the speeds permitted on HIGHWAYS – the secondary road was identified as a couple of kms shorter and the same speed limit as the Pacific Highway. Incorrect information and would have cost significant extra travelling time not to mention driver stress on narrow, winding roads.

Conclusion

If I followed the Sat Nav instructions, I would have travelled almost 200km extra distance to reach Canberra and two hours of travel time.

The Toyota Satellite Navigation Guidance System is faulty and provides consistently incorrect information to the driver. In fact, the driver needs to be familiar with any out-of-city-limits journey to be undertaken, as the Sat Nav probably will give directions that cost time and distance. A ridiculous scenario. In Australia, a small percentage of out-of-city-limits roads are Freeways and all other main Capital to Capital (plus many other roads) are highways with speed limits well above city travel.

It is not appropriate, as was suggested to me in good faith, to change the ‘Main Street’ setting to the maximum every time a longer journey is undertaken. In the first instance, travel time calculations in the next Capital city (say, Sydney where I am not familiar with roads and travel times) will be corrupted and secondly, there will still be ‘quickest route’ calculation errors because the maximum ‘Main Street’ setting is less than Highway speed limits.

Contact with other Kluger owners indicates that this problem has existed for several models.

It seems bizarre that a base model hand held Sat Nav unit costing around $200 / 500 is more accurate and provides a myriad of other information such as current speed (very useful since speedometers have an error tolerance greater than Police speed cameras allow), speed alert if the vehicle creeps over the speed limit on the road being used, speed camera locations and even road works warnings. The Toyota Sat Nav is costed into the vehicle at more than $3,000.

Solution

My understanding of the Toyota and other Sat Nav systems is that they rely on maps either on a disc or downloaded into the Sat Nav unit. The maps show all roads, streets and thoroughfares and have a series of codes or the like which indicate the speed limits and or the type of road in each instance. Not all Sat Nav units provide the driver with an adjustable speed setting.

Clearly, the Toyota Sat Nav unit is not receiving or reading a map code for HIGHWAYS. Surely, it is not the biggest job for a technician to modify the program inside the unit to read Highways (code) into the Freeway setting.

I will just finish by stating that the problems and lack of response / resolution regarding the Sat Nav unit in my vehicle have tarnished my view of the overall purchase. I happily shared my initial Sat Nav concerns with family, friends and neighbours as I was certain this small glitch would be tidied up by Toyota without any fuss or delay. I assure you that every new enquiry from them is an embarrassing constant reminder that the after sales service in this area has been fruitless. And then there is the double checking of every entry into the unit when we are planning our next journey.

I look forward to your early response and solution to this problem.

Yours sincerely,

Eric

PS I would like to say that the staff at the Cornes Toyota Dealership have listened to my complaint and, as far as I can tell, followed the Toyota corporate response policy to properly advise Toyota Australia of the situation.

COPY OF DEALERSHIP CORRESPONDENCE

Simon, 15 March 2010

I spoke to Wade over the weekend and he provided an update on the progress (?) towards fixing the Satellite Navigation System in our new car.

Wade explained that Toyota Australia basically wait for three reports of the fault from three separate dealerships.

I am sure that is a sensible process with mechanical and many other issues because the individual vehicles affected by a mechanical problem will have been repaired by the local dealership. The real purpose, I suppose, of the ‘three reports’ is to determine if some generic problem exists and perhaps whether to exercise a ‘recall’.

The difference in my situation is that the problem in my car is not fixed. In fact, we are basically trying to determine if the problem is generic so that a centralised remedy can be applied. As I understand it, two vehicles (mine and a new floor stock Kluger) from one dealership have the same problem.

I think I have been patient but I am planning another road trip in July and August 2010. I want to be able to use and rely on my Sat Nav GPS on this holiday. Here’s how I view the situation: -

1. Someone, either at Toyota Australia or at Cornes Toyota, needs to contact two other dealerships and perform the same 5 minute test of the Sat Nav System to see if the problem exists. The vehicles can be floor stock – they will either have the problem or they won’t.

2. If the problem is generic, the technicians can get on with the task of designing a remedy.

3. If the problem is not generic, my Sat Nav unit needs to be repaired or replaced.

4. Furthermore, if the problem is not generic, THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY MORE REPORTS OF THIS PROBLEM !

5. What is the time line for deciding no more reports are forthcoming? The fault in my vehicle was reported to Cornes Toyota in the first week of January 2010, more than three months ago.

6. I suspect more than three other Klugers have been sold around Australia by now.

7. Either no other owners are using their Sat Nav or they are functioning properly.

Surely it is in the interests of Toyota and their existing / future customers to be pro-active with this issue.

I can see no benefit in simply waiting – it is illogical in regard to the Toyota relationship with me and it is illogical in regard to future purchasers of the Kluger. I am happy for Toyota Australia to contact me in regard to this situation.

Regards

Eric

HERE'S THE REPLY FROM TOYOTA: -

From: On Behalf Of Toyota Customer Experience Centre

Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2010 11:03 AM

Subject: FW: Toyota

Dear Eric,

Thank you for the second correspondence you have sent to Toyota Australia.

We would like to make you aware that a response was emailed to you on the 6/9/2010, please find this below.

Thanks & Kind Regards

Jessica Bosden

Customer Experience Consultant

Customer Experience Centre

Toyota Motor Corporation Australia

--------------- Original Message ---------------

From: Toyota Customer Experience

Sent: 6/09/2010 5:12 PM

Subject: Toyota Reference

Dear Eric

Thank you for contacting Toyota Customer Experience Centre.

We understand the expectation that our customers have of their Toyota and we are sorry to learn you are dissatisfied with the performance of your vehicles Satellite Navigation System and appreciate you bringing your thoughts to our attention.

Accordingly, we have discussed the matter raised with Cornes Toyota and can confirm that the condition exhibited is in fact a normal operational characteristic of this Satellite Navigation and assure you that it will not effect nor reduce the longevity or reliability of your vehicle in any way.

Once again we sincerely apologise for the disappointment you have expressed and thank you for contacting Toyota.

Kind Regards

Jessica Bosden

Customer Experience Consultant

Customer Experience Centre

Toyota Motor Corporation Australia

HERE'S MY FOLLOW UP : -

Thank you Jessica, 21 October 2010

I don't know what has happened to the original of your reply however I understand and accept that your response was indeed prompt.

That said, I wish to make a number of follow-up points in regard to the contents of your response: -

1. Navigation System Owner's Manual

a) Page 1 Introduction. I am told that the "Navigation System is one of the most technologically advanced ... ever developed." "The N S is designed to select efficient routes ..."

There are two proviso's in the Introduction - my local knowledge which I take to mean travel around my suburb / town / city where road works or regular congestion spots can be avoided AND a reference to Sat Nav limitations which are detailed on Pages 234 & 235.

B) Page 234 & 235 Appendix. In this list of Sat Nav limitations, there is no reference whatsoever to the issue that I have reported to you.

c) Page 103 Estimated Travel Time. The manual describes the procedure to enable the Sat Nav to calculate the E T T. The manual states that "The displayed time ... is calculated based on the selected speeds (i.e. the speeds selected in the Sat Nav set-up) and actual position along the route." A proviso relating to traffic congestion, road works etc is not at issue.

My complaint to you is that the Sat Nav does not perform the E T T function as described. I have provided you with an example relating to travel from Adelaide to Canberra which is mostly on open highways with speed limits of 100kph and 110kph. The Sat Nav applies the 'Main Street' speed setting to almost all of the open highways resulting in an E T T more than 50% above the calculated E T T if the correct speed setting were to be used. As I showed in the earlier correspondence, the Sat Nav calculates the quickest route option to be Adelaide - Melbourne - Canberra (because there is approx 600km of open highway to which the Sat Nav applies the 'Freeway' speed setting in its calculation process). This calculation error occurs on almost all of Australia's open highways with speed limits of 100kph and 110kph.

Whilst I appreciate your efforts to investigate this problem, I simply cannot believe that it is 'an operational characteristic' of any Sat Nav System to produce such manifestly incorrect data. In the example I have detailed, most people might know that Melbourne is not the quickest route to Canberra. However, when I am away from my home State I may not have that information other than via my Sat Nav. I can tell you that even driving down Australia's 'Highway 1' from Brisbane to Sydney, the Toyota Sat Nav instructs a diversion via minor country roads because of its inability to recognise the correct speeds on country roads. This is annoying, creates more difficult driving conditions and can even be dangerous. I have an aging Garmin sat nav that calculates E T T and applies open highway speeds correctly.

If this is in fact an 'operational characteristic' of the Toyota Sat Nav, it is certainly not a characteristic that any person remotely familiar with sat nav units and their functions / operations would expect, be seeking or, I would suggest, accept. It is, in fact, an 'operational characteristic' so far removed from the normal operation of a sat nav that it should be highlighted on the vehicle, in the manual and by the sales staff. To be blunt, it defies logic that Toyota would present a piece of equipment that is incapable of performing one of its primary functions on the majority of Australia's country roads.

Finally, the Sat Nav System in my vehicle comes at a cost - a significant cost, in fact; many times the cost of my aging Garmin. If I was informed that the Sat Nav System had this 'operational characteristic' I would not purchase a vehicle with that feature. I believed I was purchasing a Sat Nav System with normal operating characteristics and there is no material or advice by sales staff to alert me otherwise.

Thank you for discussing the situation with Cornes Toyota.

However, it seems this problem is generic and needs Toyota to look into re-coding the unit to recognise more roads in the 'Freeway' speed setting.

I am far from appeased or satisfied with the explanation.

Please discuss my situation with more senior personnel who are in a position to find an outcome that actually rectifies a Toyota component that does not perform to the reasonable expectations of the Toyota customer.

Please also be assured I do not intend to let this matter rest.

Yours sincerely

Eric

CHEERS

Edited October 22, 2010 by BandE

[Happs]

hhhmmm, I'm awaiting the arrival of my Grande, and I have been using a windshield mounted TomTom device and recently Google Maps (via my Android mobile phone) for navigation and both perform very well indeed.

Sat Nav was a consideration when choosing the Grande so I will be very interested to see how it compares to what I've used previously. As you say, it's a very expensive 'option' that seems to perform worse than a $200 TomTom device.

[BandE]

Good luck.

I would be interested to hear if your Sat Nav unit performs better.

Also, what map disc is installed? (Mine is v16.)

[Happs]

Good luck.

I would be interested to hear if your Sat Nav unit performs better.

Also, what map disc is installed? (Mine is v16.)

More than happy to let you know but that car is only due for delivery in Dec, so it's a while away...