Wheels magazine rolled a AWD Grande Kluger

[puff]

Hmm, I've had my Kluger (KXR-AWD) for over three months now and have never seen the VSC dashboard light activate (or even flicker) unlike my previous car (BMW 320 coupe) which activated by simply driving over speed bumps a tad too quickly - admittedly I'm a light-footed driver but just wondered whether anyone else can compare the Kluger's VSC sensitivity with their former car?

BTW, I'm new to this forum......so HI!

[boleh]

Maybe we shall see if other tests finds the same deficiency as what Wheels have found. I've been reading various tests/reviews on the Toyota Highlander (what they call it in America) when the 08 model was first launched there before coming to Australia, and the only negative is its 2nd row seating. Too bad this model is only available in America and Australia, else we could compare the findings of more varied sources and look for consistency. Wheels often quote "Australian conditions" in their test and sometimes I really wonder how unique Australian roads are, unless you drive to Uluru on a regular basis. Even IF the Kluger's ESP is not properly tuned for dirt roads, I don't believe it'll make a real difference for most city dwellers. Rent a land cruiser if you're paranoid when you intend to hit the bush..

Edited January 31, 2008 by boleh

[Tae]

ESC cannot override a car's physical limits. If a driver pushes the vehicle's traction limits too far, ESC cannot prevent a crash. It is a tool to help the driver maintain control using available traction.

True; "There is no guarantee in life."

There is no guarantee that a dirt/gravel track will have even grip across the whole track. This is why VSC was invented, to help improve the drivers chances when safe conditions can not be guaranteed................Wheels have given us thier side of the story, now Toyota must release the information gathered from the ECU and explain thier side of the story. Until that happens this incident should be treated as a safety issue for all current model Kluger's.

I think the above comments should summarise the incident.

But really not sure if anyone should be alarm by the incident or really a safety issue. Coz Wheel test drove the KX-R 2WD and didn't have any problem, now the driver must push the car the much harder that the 4WD skid... But I agree Toyota should release on what they really found out.

In an ideal world Wheel and Toyota should work together and see if there is any improvement can be done to the ESC system.. But of course we live in a harsh reality world, so chance of that happen now after the news broke off will be slim... :(

[Taka]

Hmm, I've had my Kluger (KXR-AWD) for over three months now and have never seen the VSC dashboard light activate (or even flicker) unlike my previous car (BMW 320 coupe) which activated by simply driving over speed bumps a tad too quickly - admittedly I'm a light-footed driver but just wondered whether anyone else can compare the Kluger's VSC sensitivity with their former car?

BTW, I'm new to this forum......so HI!

Hi puff. Welcome

Yes I think you are right. AWD is harder to get out of grip compare with rear wheel drive car. I can set off the DSC on my RX-8 easily.

[Taka]

In an ideal world Wheel and Toyota should work together and see if there is any improvement can be done to the ESC system.. But of course we live in a harsh reality world, so chance of that happen now after the news broke off will be slim... :(

They have no data on the skid and the crash is less than useful to Toyota. They should have a Driftbox or something to measure the angle and speed.

I doubt there will be record of steering angle or lots of data in the ECU. There will be nothing pin point the incident at the crash.

If Toyota is game, should get another test on the Kluger in Wheel's term, measure all the parameter and publish it!

[johnydep]

In an ideal world Wheel and Toyota should work together and see if there is any improvement can be done to the ESC system.. But of course we live in a harsh reality world, so chance of that happen now after the news broke off will be slim... :(

They have no data on the skid and the crash is less than useful to Toyota..........

According to Toyota they do have data!

Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels."

I'm sure Toyota Japan are disecting the info right now. We may get some answers soon, all of it if owners start emailing Toyota for answers.

[PC XT]

Just got told about the roll over at a Subaru dinner tonight it did not surprise me! Have not read the article yet but have noticed the car has massive body roll when comming into a corner at higher speed than you would normally encounter under normal driving conditions with passengers (meaning it would be uncomfortable for your wife and kids as passengers) The things not a rally car or an RX8... HA HA! Its high and lofty it will roll with easy with a tool at the wheel any day any type of corner at the wrong speed, hop behind the wheel of a Subaru and you will know what I mean .

[Taka]

According to Toyota they do have data!

Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels."

I'm sure Toyota Japan are disecting the info right now. We may get some answers soon, all of it if owners start emailing Toyota for answers.

I doubt even the most advance ECU in the world will have all the data available. I know as a fact in my Mazda RX-8 there is only recorded any Trouble Codes, any over speeding, and over reving of engines.

I doubt there will be much about the speed at the time if it is 100kmh, steering angle or even if traction control is activated (at the time). They only would know if it is working because there is no code recorded in the car saying it is not.

If there is such info in the car, there must a hard disc in the ECU

[Kruzenvax]

Yeah, nothing handles corners like my Liberty; will miss it a lot. Still I'd expect Kluger (in frespect to stability) not to be much different from Tribeca...

We are talking safety here, so I'd expect VSC/ESP whatevere to kick in. Perhaps e-mailing Toyota is not such a bad idea; typical corporate crap here (1st deny everything than when it is too late/too big to ignore - announce "we are working on it", create response teams, managerial positions to oversee the issue, etc, etc) could cost lives here.

Just got told about the roll over at a Subaru dinner tonight it did not surprise me! Have not read the article yet but have noticed the car has massive body roll when comming into a corner at higher speed than you would normally encounter under normal driving conditions with passengers (meaning it would be uncomfortable for your wife and kids as passengers) The things not a rally car or an RX8... HA HA! Its high and lofty it will roll with easy with a tool at the wheel any day any type of corner at the wrong speed, hop behind the wheel of a Subaru and you will know what I mean .

[Taka]

Actually it is true. Why not force them to be something better! I agree. As a matter of fact, the calibration is in the ECU; so they can work on the DSC as well as the fuel map to get us more power.

Recalibrated DSC can be uploaded to the ECU in minutes~!

I know because I had a Japanese tuner come from Japan to Melbourne to tune my RX-8 by rewriting the fuel map in the ECU... he told me that any ECU can be rewritten if anyone can get the code (there usually very small difference between cars in Mazda). Just the fact that most people are too lazy to work on it or too selfish to share. But I am sure the ECU across the whole range of 3.5L V6 are using the same code and similar calibration and fuel map.

I wonder the Aurion driver have found someone to remap their ECU yet.

Edited January 31, 2008 by takahashi

[johnydep]

According to Toyota they do have data!

Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels."

I'm sure Toyota Japan are disecting the info right now. We may get some answers soon, all of it if owners start emailing Toyota for answers.

I doubt even the most advance ECU in the world will have all the data available. I know as a fact in my Mazda RX-8 there is only recorded any Trouble Codes, any over speeding, and over reving of engines.

I doubt there will be much about the speed at the time if it is 100kmh, steering angle or even if traction control is activated (at the time). They only would know if it is working because there is no code recorded in the car saying it is not.

If there is such info in the car, there must a hard disc in the ECU

If you are correct then I can only assume that Toyota are, at best, playing with words and at worst, telling untruths - Peter Webester TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED "A download of the onboard ECU of the vehicle involved in the accident indicates a set of circumstances substantially different to those described by Wheels." Did Wheels Mag mention fault codes or activated fault light?

The Toyota statement indicates that Toyota Tech extracted information form the ECU and found a story different to the Wheels explanation; how could they come to this conclusion?

The plot thickens, Toyota must release the information.

As for hard drives, what about flash memory? Small, compact and huge memory capabilities.

[Taka]

As for hard drives, what about flash memory? Small, compact and huge memory capabilities.

It was a joke. I don't think there is any needle ticking inside the ECU.

Flash memory is expensive. No I doubt even the porsches have that sort of detail data.

I have the scan tool in my computer for my RX-8, there is minimal data collected by the ECU in modern Japanese sports car. I wonder how much will be recorded in a family SUV

[johnydep]

As for hard drives, what about flash memory? Small, compact and huge memory capabilities.

It was a joke. I don't think there is any needle ticking inside the ECU.

Flash memory is expensive. No I doubt even the porsches have that sort of detail data.

I have the scan tool in my computer for my RX-8, there is minimal data collected by the ECU in modern Japanese sports car. I wonder how much will be recorded in a family SUV

Vehicle manufacturers have been using Flash Memory for several years. The more advanced systems record & store data, including code excecution & sensor input.

A quick Google and I found an old Mitsi Electrical ECU that has Flash memory, etc.

Mitsubishi Electric’s New 32-Bit Automotive MCU Offers

Industry’s Largest Flash Memory Capacity October 2, 2002

Large-Capacity Flash Memory

The new M32R/ECU devices offer large DINOR flash memory capacity to increase productivity at the development of manufacturing stages, and to contribute to improved maintainability in the field. The M32R/ECU#5 offers 1,024 Kbytes of flash memory with 48 Kbytes of RAM, and the M32R/ECU#5HL offers 384 Kbytes of flash memory and 64 Kbytes of RAM. Both devices offer memory expansion, which allows designers to add external discrete memory capacity.

Mitsubishi Electric’s DINOR flash memory enables customers to program using a single 3.3- or 5.0-volt power supply. Designers can program quickly at a rate of 64 Kbytes every two seconds, regardless of the operating frequency. The devices support serial programming or software-based CPU programming as well as block erase and collective erase modes, giving designers more flexibility. The flash memory even provides a security function that protects against unauthorized readout or modification by any third party.

JTAG Interface With Tracing Development Tool

The new M32R/ECU devices incorporate a special tracing tool into the JTAG interface to streamline the code debugging process. The tool captures many clock cycles of code execution history so that designers can quickly narrow a coding problem to its source and make corrections, enabling faster time-to-market development.

Broad Development Tools Support

The M32R/ECU family is supported by proprietary and third-party development tools, such as system modeling software, real-time operating systems, C code generators, debugging and data calibration, and flash programming tools.

[boleh]

Great findings, johndep. If I understand it right it stores the debugging info for the ECU program itself, which makes it easier for programmers to debug the ECU if necessary. It comes short of saying whether it stores "in flight" info such as vehicle speed history log, steering angle and other info mentioned by takahashi. Maybe Toyota should fit a Black Box like those found on airplanes before handing their test vehicles to Wheels in the next COTY. That way we could even hear what were being mumbled by Ged Bulmer.. LOL

Edited February 1, 2008 by boleh

[mrbishi]

As long as they dont use a Mclaren ECU we should be right.

For the F1ers...... :D

[Taka]

Sorry that I use the word flash memory wrong. I am not a computer person. I think we are talking about a different size of the memory it store. Well 1Mb memory. I was thinking of 64Mb we use in cameras haha.

Boleh is right, they store data (mainly the DTC - diagnostic trouble codes) but as sophisted as we hope that is all, and sensor data they store --- just crank angle sensor, o2 sensors, MAF sensor etc and if they were something wrong, they show up as DTC (diagnostic trouble codes). Just the DTC code alone have 1000s of items. They record time and code and store it in the ECU until the mechanics clear it the next check. Some do not show up as check lights on dash.

I do know as a fact that some sports car record how many times you exceed a certain speed. They use that as an evidence of car abuse on race tracks. But talking about seconds to second record of steering angle, speed and what happen to the traction control when it crashes...on the move... I doubt it.

I really wish I could have those in my RX-8, I really do. So I can analyze my lap around Winton raceway. hehe.

EDIT: I know I am not a computer person, but I know that the data I got from GPS race data... I can have 200kb for 20minutes of racing, just for the GPS position of the car taken every 1/5 sec. Calculate speed and lap times. Nothing about G forces yet. So 1024kb is not much. Having said that, only the last 10 sec counts doesn't it???? Hope they have some data.

Edited February 1, 2008 by takahashi

[johnydep]

Sorry that I use the word flash memory wrong. I am not a computer person. I think we are talking about a different size of the memory it store. ........

I feel that we are going around in circles, this shal be my last post on the subject!

Many times you have inadvertently highlighted the inadequacy of Toyota's response to the Wheels Magazine claims!

Toyota could not have gathered any information from the ECU that could possibly clear the company of any responsibility to a safety issue, and pass the blame onto a second party. That is why Toyota are not releasing any information of what was gathered from the memory of the ECU.

I don't care if it's Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Ford or whoever if a car magazine highlights a fault such as Wheels has, the vehicle manufacturer should release any and all information ASAP to the buying public. To hold back certain material and to issue unsubstantiated information, is highly suspect.

This is not the first time a manufacturer has had something to hide. The big three in the US had major court cases over safety issues hidden then brought to light by fatalities, Mitsubishi hid faulty mechanical parts on thier vehicles for 10 years.

If enough consumers turn a blind eye, manufacturers will take the gamble and stay silent. It's happened before, re Mitsubishi.

Anyone that owns a Kluger should be making a request to Toyota for assurances that the VSC wll operate in all conditions and instantaneously, get it in writing. If they do that, with reasonable wording, all is good.

When I purchased my vehicle, safety was the first issue; the stability control and air bags helped me make a decision to purchase the safest vehicle that I could afford to ensure the safety of my family. I would not want that compromised.

EDIT: The ECU with 1Mb of flash memory is 6 years old now, new ECU's have greater memory. Also, if you read the article it states that the ECU's "offer memory expansion, which allows designers to add external discrete memory capacity."

And just because you have a scan tool does not mean you can access all the info. To gather all the data available from OBDII vehicles requires a scan tool with all the vehicle manfacturers code.

There is also some interesting development in the heavy vehicle industry; http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/facts-research/re...ec05/appn-b.htm

Edited February 1, 2008 by johnydep

[Taka]

I am going to take a rest too. There are so many unknown

We can only wish we can hear something from Toyota!

In the meantime, for the interest of safety, drive safely (around the gravel bend at 100kmh) !

Edited February 1, 2008 by takahashi

[SmellyTofu]

I have heard that the speed of the actual crash was close to double the printed speed.

[aardvark]

Electronic driver aides are not a replacement for stupidity!

[Taka]

I have heard that the speed of the actual crash was close to double the printed speed.

They printed as 100kmh... so you are saying that they are doing close to 200kmh?

Can Kluger even gets to 200kmh?

[PC XT]

I have heard that the speed of the actual crash was close to double the printed speed.

They printed as 100kmh... so you are saying that they are doing close to 200kmh?

Can Kluger even gets to 200kmh?

It would do 200 if pushed...140 it does not even break a sweet, not sure on the gearring...need the 6th speed for this test!

[SmellyTofu]

Electronic driver aides are not a replacement for stupidity!

Quote for the truth.

[boleh]

Kluger doing 200 *gulp* ... Its too high and suspension too wobly

Get a CX9 if u wanna go 200kph

[mrbishi]

Get a sports car if you want to go 200 not a 2 tonne truck.