Kluger Performance problem

[John1]

Hi All.

I have just taken my 2010 Kluger Kxr ( 16,000km) back to the service department for inspection as I had noticed a loss in performance. Main symptoms being loss of power and acceleration and very soft and unresponsive throttle. The guy at the service dept asked me what type of fuel I had been using to which I replied a mixture of 95,98 and E10.

After inspection of the car i was told that there is likely contamination damage from using e10 fuel and that the fuel pump pressure was too high. After they cleaned out the throttle body, my car was returned to me with their advice being to run 98 fuel for the next 2-3 fills and to see what happens....

The service department were reasonably helpful in this instance though i have some issues relating to the current problem..

1. Warranty: Am I likely to be covered if the real issue is contamination from using E10. I only use e10 occasionally?

2. e10 is a recommended fuel option by Toyota, clearly marked on all petrol caps.

3. How do i know if the problem is caused bad fuel and not something else a such as a faulty fuel pump..?

4 I would never have expected these problems so early in the life of my Kluger ( only 16,000 kms).

Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Looking forward to some feedback and advice if possible.

Edited December 30, 2011 by John1

[jeffy]

use 98, its cleaner, and help you with mileage,

[John1]

use 98, its cleaner, and help you with mileage,

Thanks Jeffy. Will definitely be using 98 from now on. Just hoping there is no permanent damage to the car and Toyota fix the issue without trying to avoid the problem...

[Matty P]

I always use 98 because it is cleaner and provides better performance.

However, as you say E10 is advised as suitable for the vehicle so using it should not affect your warranty. If it is a dodgy batch of fuel that has caused your issue then Toyota are not responsible.

I would suggest running 98 (I prefer BP Ultimate) for a few tanks as they suggest - continue using it if you can. It is a few $$$ more but you do find you get better mileage as well, so doesn't work out much more expensive. ;)

If the problem continues, definately take it back to the service dept.

[John1]

I always use 98 because it is cleaner and provides better performance.

However, as you say E10 is advised as suitable for the vehicle so using it should not affect your warranty. If it is a dodgy batch of fuel that has caused your issue then Toyota are not responsible.

I would suggest running 98 (I prefer BP Ultimate) for a few tanks as they suggest - continue using it if you can. It is a few $$$ more but you do find you get better mileage as well, so doesn't work out much more expensive. ;)

If the problem continues, definately take it back to the service dept.

Im curious to know if Toyota still covers me should the bad batch of fuel be from 98 or 95. It is concerning and misleading that Toyota still recommends e10 as suitable fuel when they clearly know that e10 batches can vary in quality ( something i recently became aware of when i took the car in for the check...)and have the option to not cover damages under warranty.

[Matty P]

Toyota don't make the fuel so even if you use their recommended specification (E10, 95 or 98) they will not be responsible for damage resulting from a bad batch.

It can also be difficult to prove that a bad batch of fuel caused your problems so you are unlikely to have any joy with the fuel company either.

Lets hope there is no permanent damage. A couple of tanks of good 98 might do the trick!

[John1]

Toyota don't make the fuel so even if you use their recommended specification (E10, 95 or 98) they will not be responsible for damage resulting from a bad batch.

It can also be difficult to prove that a bad batch of fuel caused your problems so you are unlikely to have any joy with the fuel company either.

Lets hope there is no permanent damage. A couple of tanks of good 98 might do the trick!

Fingers crossed! Thanks for the advice Matty P

[01 VEY]

E10 is the fuel most likely to be subject to moisture contamination. Since seeing the story on fuel comparisons I wont ever use E10 or regular fuels again

[11/16Aurion 12Kluger]

Even my mower wont run on E10.. :-) Use the quality fuel, worth every cent.

[idisc]

Accidental double post.

Edited January 13, 2012 by idisc

[idisc]

I think the loss in performance does sound like it is fuel related, but not because you ran e10 in the car.

While personally I run 98 in my Kluger (I run 98 in all my cars), there should NEVER be any problems associated with running e10 as a grade of fuel.

If the significant and noticeable loss in performance was sudden, it is likely you filled up with a bad tank of fuel (doesn't matter if it was e10, 95, or 98; any fuel can be dirty or contaminated). Dirty throttle bodies can decrease performance and cause sluggishness but not usually as significantly as you described.

Service departments I have found are generally average at best in troubleshooting problems.

If they found a very dirty throttle body, they should have also inspected the air filter which would have been very dirty too and hence replaced.

If they suspected it was a bad batch of fuel, they should have inspected your spark plugs and fuel filter.

I would check the following:

- air filter, see if it is very dirty

- spark plugs, see if they are fouled

- fuel filter, see if it is dirty

If either the plugs or filters need replacing, change them, and you should see your performance return, providing the bad tank of fuel has already been used. It's up to you what fuel you use but this should not be a reason to not use e10.

I believe the Kluger has an electronic throttle so if the problem persists then I would perform an ECU reset.

I wouldn't worry about any permanent damage, it is highly unlikely that a bad batch of fuel can actually harm your car in a serious manner.

[John1]

I think the loss in performance does sound like it is fuel related, but not because you ran e10 in the car.

While personally I run 98 in my Kluger (I run 98 in all my cars), there should NEVER be any problems associated with running e10 as a grade of fuel.

If the significant and noticeable loss in performance was sudden, it is likely you filled up with a bad tank of fuel (doesn't matter if it was e10, 95, or 98; any fuel can be dirty or contaminated). Dirty throttle bodies can decrease performance and cause sluggishness but not usually as significantly as you described.

Service departments I have found are generally average at best in troubleshooting problems.

If they found a very dirty throttle body, they should have also inspected the air filter which would have been very dirty too and hence replaced.

If they suspected it was a bad batch of fuel, they should have inspected your spark plugs and fuel filter.

I would check the following:

- air filter, see if it is very dirty

- spark plugs, see if they are fouled

- fuel filter, see if it is dirty

If either the plugs or filters need replacing, change them, and you should see your performance return, providing the bad tank of fuel has already been used. It's up to you what fuel you use but this should not be a reason to not use e10.

I believe the Kluger has an electronic throttle so if the problem persists then I would perform an ECU reset.

I wouldn't worry about any permanent damage, it is highly unlikely that a bad batch of fuel can actually harm your car in a serious manner.

I will have the service department check the filters. I have been running 98 for the last 3 fills. The car feels better though it still feels like something isnt quite right. Throttle still slighly soft and it could be a bit more responsive. Might have the fuel pressure rechecked as this was high upon last inspection. Would the fuel pressure problem be related to dirty filters or a problem with the pump itself?

By the way what is an ECU reset?

Edited January 13, 2012 by John1

[idisc]

I'm not exaclty sure how bad fuel can cause fuel pressure to be higher than normal.

Are they saying it could be due to excess gunk in the fuel filter from bad fuel?

Have you experienced poorer fuel economy?

It's quite easy to check the air filter, spark plugs and fuel filter yourself, but if you are not confident in doing so, you can take it back to Toyota; I'm not sure how happy they would be at taking directions from you (after all, they are supposed to be the ones doing the troubleshooting right?) and they may charge you for it.

Perhaps you can say that performance still seems sluggish after running 98 for the last 3 tanks as they suggested. Ask them for more info about what steps they did to troubleshoot the problem last time.

Ask them if the throttle body was dirty enough for them to clean it, did they inspect the air filter too? have you driven on some very dusty roads?

Ask them if they thought the bad fuel was so bad that would cause a rise in fuel pressure, did they check if the fuel filter was clogged? and whether they checked your spark plugs were fouled.

They were probably too lazy to check the fuel filter as I believe it requires removal of the rear passenger seat (haven't actually performed this task myself yet), they will also most likely tell you that the fuel filter doesn't need to be replaced till 80,000km or something like that.

In anycase, if they say that the batch of fuel was so bad that it caused a rise in fuel pressure, they should at least inspect the fuel filter.

In modern cars, the ECU controls everything, even down to the opening of the throttle (electronic throttle, as opposed to a cable in older cars). When you step on the accelerator, you aren't actually opening the throttle directly, you are triggering a switch that sends signals to activate the throttle electronically.

Anyway, as modern engine management systems control everything, a reset of the ECU can at times help with restoring performance: especially in situations where say the breathing of the engine has been improved, or you had an especially bad batch of fuel and the ECU had retarded ignition timing etc.

The ECU will usually take time to adjust back to optimal settings; resetting the ECU in this situation will speed up this process.