Wheels magazine rolled a AWD Grande Kluger

[Taka]

Page 54 of Wheel Feb COTY testing.

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Here is the article in pdf

http://download.xdrive.com/s/133359862IIKe...mp;partner=plus

or

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DH1GG9BW

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"was travelling at 100kmh through a sweeping, gravel left hand bend at Holden's Lang Lang Proving Ground"... "the all-wheel drive Grande was in a mild oversteer attitude, something not uncommon in any car through this particular bend at this speed"

"Testing ESP on gravel requires the driver to allow the vehicle to develop some attitude (or slip) in order to have the ESP do its thing. This is because ESP, or VDC in Toyota, is designed to intervene only when a system of sensors detect that the vehicle is developing such slip angles.

They also said many other car is substandard... Lexus LS, RX330, Audi A5/S5, Honda CR-V, Hyandai i30, Nissan X Trail, and Skoda Roomster.

A real fair comment came out of my mind... "why do you do a 100kmh long sweeper on the dirt in the first place?"

Edited January 25, 2008 by takahashi

[pinzvidz]

I reckon Toyota's VSC is way too intrusive, too safe if anything! It locks the counteracting wheel really hard in hard oversteer/understeer situations. I shat myself in a KX-R when trying it out on a good, slippery and wet LH bend, really lifted up the LHR of the vehicle (probably wheel off ground!)

[Taka]

As any comment from WHEELS about the VDC is that they do not work! I am trying to upload the article itself.

EDIT: Updated first post

Edited January 24, 2008 by takahashi

[mrbishi]

Its good to see the vehicle is so strong and stood up to the roll well, but wheels can think and say what they like especially when trying to justify the battered ego of one of their writers.

VSC calibration and testing is performed to an internationally specified test procedure, which I am sure has been well thought of and also is designed to properly test the VSC of a vehicle.

What the wheels people seem to be doing is applying continuous extremes rather than sudden extremes that would be more consistent with emergency situations.

The continuous extremes would more replicate a racing environment which would require different software settings for the VSC program.

I would not call the wheels test quantifiable at all as it did not replicate a real world situation for sudden emergencies which is what the VSC is programmed to try and correct.

Perhaps wheels should conduct the proper test and then put the all the other cars back through the same test and see how the results change.

I think this is basically what Toyota are saying in their letter.

[Tae]

Its good to see the vehicle is so strong and stood up to the roll well, but wheels can think and say what they like especially when trying to justify the battered ego of one of their writers.

I agree, it look pretty good for a car involved in an accident. <_<

I actually thought the ride/handleing of the Kluger was the best out the the ones we test drove. Not sure why Wheel has problem with the that either.

But just on the point that the car did roll over. Just makes me thinking now how much pressure or extreme "sweeping" is actually required to push the two ton car to roll. I don't think Kluger is equipped with anti-roll bar right? :(

edit: it's not fair they just say the car isn't safe enough, just because the driver did some silly manoeuvre and crashed the car. They didn't even say if they did the same with other cars in same condition. I mean the drive walks out of the accident unhurt, right? lol...

Edited January 24, 2008 by Tae

[Taka]

Well said Mrbishi,

Tae, we have anti-roll bar. No anti roll bar in the car will 100% stop a car from rolling... haha.

The fact that it rolled is due to the fact that the car is sideway and the tyre catching the tyres.... then the tyre pops out of the rim and the car rolls.

[Kruzenvax]

Please keep telling Wheels are wrong and Kluger dynamics is good :D

[mrbishi]

The reason why it rolled was like Taka said the wheels dug in and caused it to flip. Most cars would have rolled in the same situation.

The writer should have been commending the kluger on its safety to come out without a scratch from an almost 100kmh roll. The car didnt look too bad, I wonder if it actually rolled or just flipped on its side and slid??. But looking at the picture if the skid marks in the foreground are the klugers and the side thats resting on the road it must have done atleast one roll.

[Kruzenvax]

Well, I'm no way an auto guru (anybody can figure that out judging my posts here :D ), but

Considering it's not a racing car but a family SUV... I'd rather get the one that is intact after the roll than the one that makes flounder out of everybdy inside (I refer to a recent TV show - today tonight as far as I remember), which exposed a lack of a structure in the car roof that gets squeshed on the roll (guess you know what brand were they talking about).

P.S. I'm having a final / long testdrive tomorrow - hope I won;t roll it! :D

Edited January 24, 2008 by Kruzenvax

[Taka]

Download the pdf file. It is a good read. It said somewhere that the Kluger had a 270 degree turn.

[mrbishi]

Well, I'm no way an auto guru (anybody can figure that out judging my posts here :D ), but

Considering it's not a racing car but a family SUV... I'd rather get the one that is intact after the roll than the one that makes flounder out of everybdy inside (I refer to a recent TV show - today tonight as far as I remember), which exposed a lack of a structure in the car roof that gets squeshed on the roll (guess you know what brand were they talking about).

P.S. I'm having a final / long testdrive tomorrow - hope I won;t roll it! :D

Good luck tomorrow, just dont go 100kmh around a dirt bend pushing the car hoping to make it go sideways thinking your a rally driver.... be warned off the klugers main competitor ( Terri) especilly in terms of rust and the quality of the plastic that is used in crucial components like door locks and windows and other places where some sort of strength is required. I think they have an inherent problem with deteriorating structure in the plastics that they use, they eventually crack and break. Also there seems to be more and more of them appearing with rust problems, some stories have been appearing in newspapers as well as other forums.

[boleh]

I never miss an issue of wheels since I started in 2005 when I first came to Australia. They can be biased at times but you know... a pinch of salt. It becomes more evident when they do a comparison btw Toyota (Aurion) vs. Holden (Commodore). They never fail to amaze me on how they can consistently achieve FC figures below the ADR81 for Holden, and way above the ADR81 for Toyota. Besides that, theyre quite a good read...

Edited January 24, 2008 by boleh

[dlodlo]

100km/h(bet it was more) on a gravel road on a bend what a genius, the worlds full of people who wont take responsibility for their actions, wasnt his fault must be the car! None of the hundreds of reports on this car in America have come up with this problem as far as I know.

I am sure the toyota engineers didnt test it doing 100km/h on gravel on a bend, they wouldnt think anybody would be that stupid.

But maybe they should have?

Good to see not much damage though, if I am ever that stupid.

Do the same thing to a territory,tribeca,xtrail etc bet they all roll given exactly the same circumstances.

[pinzvidz]

100km/h(bet it was more) on a gravel road on a bend what a genius, the worlds full of people who wont take responsibility for their actions, wasnt his fault must be the car! None of the hundreds of reports on this car in America have come up with this problem as far as I know.

I am sure the toyota engineers didnt test it doing 100km/h on gravel on a bend, they wouldnt think anybody would be that stupid.

But maybe they should have?

Good to see not much damage though, if I am ever that stupid.

Do the same thing to a territory,tribeca,xtrail etc bet they all roll given exactly the same circumstances.

Mate, you'd be surprised what type of testing Toyota do, let alone most other manufacturers.

[Taka]

ESP = Electronic Stability Control in car, not ESP = Extra-sensory perception, a paranormal ability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP

The car CANNOT anyway in the world know what you think.

ESP is a very simple system, sensors to sense wheel spin/and yaw sensors and it either apply brakes or cut fuel to suit it.

The new BMW X6 will have different torque application to each wheel. That is just slightly more complicated.

What makes me laugh is one person in the ford forum

http://www.fordforums.com.au/printthread.php?t=11206821

"I'm not blaming Toyota specifically, but give me a rational reason why the kluger did flip and why the ESP didn't intervene when it should have and why no other similar vehicles rolled over during test and i'll shut up!"

He did not read the article and treat the forum like conversation in the pub. He did not realise that his misunderstanding has gone in the public world (google). Don't embrass yourself. Post something clever.

I will speak on behalf of all the Mazda Rx-8 drivers who enjoy his car on the race track with the most advance traction control in the middle priced sport cars.

Generally there is 3 ways you can engage in situation when you need a traction control. I have the opportunity as pre-order buyer of the car to test the car on race track before it launches back in 2003. They showed me DSC with this moves!

ONE: step the accel pedal too hard. In RWD cars, the wheel spin and you have oversteer.

TO CORRECT: Take fuel off via computer, apply brake to the outer rear wheel.

TWO: Take off the accel pedal too quick. It will also create overspin.

TO CORRECT: Apply brakes, Electronic brake distribution (EBD) may come in play to control the braking (to make it uneven across the wheels).

THREE: Brake too hard and turn.

TO CORRECT: EBD will control most braking and ease off where the one locked. But still it can go sideways. It just happen to stop without spining out far.

I have a video demostrating how it works. The link is down atm. I have educated the RX-8 group of owners about DSC and I don't think there is another group of owners will know about it more than us, especially Ford owners, and perhaps the Wheel editors. I doubt anyone of them races their cars with DSC. I have emailed them about this. Testing the car with ESP/DSC/VDC outside the capability of the car itself is not appropriate, especially there may be wrong input from the driver that make a spin of no return.

BTW - I have stated by the car flip and I will say again:

The car flip as stated in the article, as I understand is that the car skid/spin slideways on the gravel to the grass, hit a bump, poped both inner tyres, and the car centre of gravity tipped over and there is a roll.

People in ford forum. Copy and paste.

Edited January 24, 2008 by takahashi

[Taka]

Interesting comment from Ged when he got attacked from the Wheel mag site

Jeffoz comment:

And Mr Bulmer crashed during this huh! Rolled the SUV. Did it while sliding it, gee, go figure! Glad to see there are real experts doing these tests. As a `pro test driver` he left out the most important rule of driving fast - leave room for error! Which he didnt. 100ks around a bend on gravel and gee the ESP didnt kick in! Most cars either need a dab on the go pedal or a tap on the brakes to bring the electronic devices on, ie: BMW and MB`s ASC system, both dont come in unless you squeeze the accelerator pedal. If a car is sliding evenly the electronics can be fooled. Amateur, very amateur Mr Bulmer. "

Ged's comment back:

"JeffDOZ, You`re entitled to your opinion about my driving ability, but you make a couple of points that are either misinformed, or incorrect. First, it`s impossible to test the efficacy of ESP on gravel without sliding the vehicle. ESP is designed to correct such slides, so to get it to work one must first allow the vehicle to slide. We test in this way because it is possible to get a vehicle sliding on gravel at a lower and safer speed than it is to do so on tarmac. Furthermore, the speed the Kluger was travelling at (100km/h) on the particular section of road where the crash happened was not particularly high. On a similar quality public road I and other judges agreed we`d sit at around the same (legal) speed. I suspect many of our country readers would do the same. For the record, I am advised that Holden`s proving ground test drivers negotiate the same bend in rear-wheel drive Commodores at almost 160km/h. It`s also worth noting that all eight judges, drove 45 other contenders, including several SUVs, through this same bend at a similar speed during COTY testing. We`ve done likewise with hundreds of other vehicles over the years, so we believe our test practices to be safe and legitimate. Frankly, it would be irresponsible for Wheels to not test the effectiveness of ESP, but we take every reasonable precaution in doing so, including using the relative safety of a proving ground environment for such testing. Second, your point about ESP systems requiring a dab of brake or throttle to activate is plain wrong. Such a requirement does exist in some vehicles that have switchable ESP, in order to reactivate the system, but this was not an issue with the Kluger, as the ESP had not been switched off. It simply failed to work when it should have. You would also know that in many emergency situations, novice drivers simply freeze up. Therefore, your incorrect assertion that one needs to use throttle or brake to invoke ESP would render this potentially life-saving technology useless to the very drivers who need it the most. Bottom line: In cars with properly calibrated ESP the system works regardless of what the driver`s feet are doing. Third, if your assertion that a smoothly sliding car can fool the workings of ESP is correct, then does it not stand to reason that such an ESP system is not doing its job? If the car is sliding, ipso facto, the ESP has failed to do what it is designed to do, notably arrest such slides. Fourth, at no stage in my published article did I state that I did not use brake or throttle during the incident, so I`d be intrigued to learn where you got that idea from. Finally, I`m a journalist who happens to drive cars and write about them. I regard myself as an above average driver, but nowhere on my CV, in Wheels or anywhere else, will you find me claiming to be a `pro test driver`. I`ll leave that claim to you. - Ged Bulmer, Wheels"

Edited January 25, 2008 by takahashi

[boleh]

takahashi

relax.. relax..

[mrbishi]

Interesting comment from Ged when he got attacked from the Wheel mag site

Seems like a lot of words to justify overdoing it, but in particular he further tries to legitimise his claim by the following.

Ged's comment back:

". I suspect many of our country readers would do the same. For the record, I am advised that Holden`s proving ground test drivers negotiate the same bend in rear-wheel drive Commodores at almost 160km/h. "

Now I dont think country readers will deliberately try and oversteer their cars doing 100kmh on a dirt bend to try and invoke a slide, this is an absolutely stupid comment he made trying to justify this claim. He was not driving in a normal fashion around that bend just as he stated "they were trying to invoke DSC/VSC/ESP"

And then to say that test commodores do the same bend at 160kmh is another irrelevant comment as the drivers there are professional test drivers that know every ripple in the road like the back of their hand and are also trying to drive as fast as possible and not trying to oversteer to invoke a slide.

Really he must think people reading his comments are stupid and cant analyse and think for themselves.....

But then his comments would also appeal to the whole lot of the anti-toyota crowd who jump on any misguided reasons to try and downcast the brand...

[Taka]

takahashi

relax.. relax..

Ha I have heard that many times in the rx8 forum before.

After cooling down a bit... it is just an accident that concluded that there is still times that VDC cannot control all troubles. I want to see if there is any video evidence of what happen. So far we only have the driver recollection.

Even the day I crash my RX-8 at Phillip Island I had video evidence of it..

[ToyotaFreak]

There's also one thing the Wheels author didn't take into consideration.

Vehicles like SUVs & minivans have a higher centre of gravity.

So the same thing could happen to a Ford Territory, Holden Captiva, Toyota Previa or a RAV4 in the same situation.

This is also proof that driving aids like ESP/ VSC/ DSC wouldn't make us invincible (Why the Aussie government want to make it compulsory just beats me. I'd rather have proper driver training, as that will be more useful.).

Edited January 26, 2008 by ToyotaFreak

[boleh]

There's also one thing the Wheels author didn't take into consideration.

Vehicles like SUVs & minivans have a higher centre of gravity.

So the same thing could happen to a Ford Territory, Holden Captiva, Toyota Previa or a RAV4 in the same situation.

This is also proof that driving aids like ESP/ VSC/ DSC wouldn't make us invincible (Why the Aussie government want to make it compulsory just beats me. I'd rather have proper driver training, as that will be more useful.).

Hi A-------,

He is old enough to know that.. I think he was punishing the Kluger beyond any other cars/SUVs in the COTY test. Rebellion against anything Toyota, thats Wheels.

[Taka]

Met up with the best drifter/strunt man in Melbourne if not the whole Australia today (Kevin Flynn). He did a lot of launch days for Toyota. He works for many makes just not Toyota and he is the one that told me to get the Kluger.

When I told him that Wheels has rolled the car while testing the traction control, he seems very surprised? He said, " you sure it is not the driver?"

I did not say this... (now he will hate me quoting him )

[johnydep]

ESP = Electronic Stability Control in car, not ESP = Extra-sensory perception, a paranormal ability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP

The car CANNOT anyway in the world know what you think.

ESP is a very simple system, sensors to sense wheel spin/and yaw sensors and it either apply brakes or cut fuel to suit it.

The new BMW X6 will have different torque application to each wheel. That is just slightly more complicated.

What makes me laugh is one person in the ford forum

http://www.fordforums.com.au/printthread.php?t=11206821

"I'm not blaming Toyota specifically, but give me a rational reason why the kluger did flip and why the ESP didn't intervene when it should have and why no other similar vehicles rolled over during test and i'll shut up!"

He did not read the article and treat the forum like conversation in the pub. He did not realise that his misunderstanding has gone in the public world (google). Don't embrass yourself. Post something clever.

.............................................

Hi, I'm an ex-Toyota owner and have a lot of respect for the company, but I'm here to comment on the Kluger rollover with concern for safety and to fight propaganda.

There really is no misunderstanding of what happened. Vehicle Dynamic Control is designed to assist the driver in the unfortunate situation of losing control, ie over steer, under steer, slide.

The Wheels driver forced the vehicle into a slide to test the effectiveness of the VDC, it did not operate as the driver was accustomed to from other vehicle systems.

The roleover is just a distraction, the real worry is that the VDC did not activate in a reasonble time frame. I have been a driver of a vehicle that went into a slide and the VDC has assisted me bring the vehicle back into line, it was so fast it took me a few moments to work out what had happened.

Please don't look at this as an attack on the Kluger, try and understand the safety ramifications. This could happen to any vehicle manufacturer, it must be investigated thoroughly in the name of safety and consumerism.

I don't see what the big fuss is about going 60mph. Out here, in KS, thats usually as low as the speed limit is, but people still go faster.

Your right Eric, ANY system will not be able to defy the laws a physics. That being said, I have a hard time understanding why the system didn't kick in. If you read the article on that site, you will notice that he is not a novice driver on that course. They were at the Holden Proving Grounds which he says that he has driven several times before. He also noted that the system was sporadic during the testing prior to the incident. He said that he had the car sideway at an estimated 85-95KPH. The question is not "could the system get him out of the slide without flipping", I would be amazed see as that probably would have been a miracle of itself, but why the system let him get so far without intervening? After the wheels popped and demounted from the tires, there was nothing the system or the driver could do. Also, he never noted that he was off the road during the slide.

He also noted that there were other vehicles that attributed poor system response, but none of the other ones would let him get as far as he did with the Toyota.

It is not that there is no job done to remove all the variables and make all the have to enter the same exact way etc, it is why did the Toyota system let him get so far sideways and never respond? These systems should all be able to respond within milliseconds of driver and car input and be able to correct before the driver knows that they is in trouble. As I'm sure you know, its not easy to put a car in a slide at those speeds, but with todays computers on cars controlling everything from the throttle to the brakes, and the driver just inputing requests to the PCM before it is approved, the question still remains as to why the system let him get so far sideways and still did nothing?

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5137591

[Taka]

The problem is Johny that ESP will not 100% save you. There is no guarantee in life. That is the message I am going to put out to the forums.

Wheels magazine portrait the traction and stability control works like magic and fool prove. They have not considered the dynamics of skid and I think that is the problem. Who can assure me that the dirt/gravel tract that they use have even grip across the whole track, particularly where he lost control. Now, that is my point! When there is sudden lost of grip beyond control, no one, including the perfect DSC/ESP/VDC can save it.

[johnydep]

The problem is Johny that ESP will not 100% save you. There is no guarantee in life. That is the message I am going to put out to the forums.

Wheels magazine portrait the traction and stability control works like magic and fool prove. They have not considered the dynamics of skid and I think that is the problem. Who can assure me that the dirt/gravel tract that they use have even grip across the whole track, particularly where he lost control. Now, that is my point! When there is sudden lost of grip beyond control, no one, including the perfect DSC/ESP/VDC can save it.

True; "There is no guarantee in life."

There is no guarantee that a dirt/gravel track will have even grip across the whole track. This is why VSC was invented, to help improve the drivers chances when safe conditions can not be guaranteed.

The ESP should have detected the test vehicles slide, sensors should have sent information to the ECU and the ECU should have applied individual brakes, which is easily noticed by the driver, in an attempt to bring the vehicle back under control. There is no guarantee that the VSC will stop a crash, but there should be an attempt).

Something went wrong, the fault can only lie with either the driver or the Kluger Vehicle Stability Control; Wheels have given us thier side of the story, now Toyota must release the information gathered from the ECU and explain thier side of the story. Until that happens this incident should be treated as a safety issue for all current model Kluger's.

Electronic Stability Control

Operation

ESC compares the driver's intended direction (by measuring steering angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (by measuring lateral acceleration, rotation (yaw) and individual wheel speeds). If the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering, ESC then brakes individual front or rear wheels and/or reduces excess engine power as needed to help correct understeer (plowing) or oversteer (fishtailing).

ESC incorporates yaw angle control into anti-lock brakes. Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. ESC may also incorporate traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained.

ESC cannot override a car's physical limits. If a driver pushes the vehicle's traction limits too far, ESC cannot prevent a crash. It is a tool to help the driver maintain control using available traction.

Edited January 31, 2008 by johnydep