Auto Transmission Cooling

[Tubby]

G'day All

I plan to do some serious towing with my LC200 Sahara.

It has been suggested that I invest in an oil cooler for the transmission.

Anyone done the same or otherwise seen the need?

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

It has been suggested that I invest in an oil cooler for the transmission.

Hi Tubby,

I wonder who has suggested it. I doubt if it was Toyota. From memory the book talks about towing and there being no need for an auxiliary cooler.

I have towed 3ton van, Perth and return (I am on east coast) in some pretty hot weather (and both the van and car were well overweight) and the temp gauge didn't move and I have checked the auto oil and there is no signs of any overheating. I discussed the same with my local T dealer before I left and they confirmed that the cooling capacity of the existing cooler would cope easily with anything in Au.

If you are really pushed (or pushing) for a cooler - these people may be able to assist.

http://www.pwr.com.au/index.html#/view=home/

I am not a user of their product(s) - I have just heard/read about them (so can't vouch for quality)

Regards

Geoff

Edited January 21, 2011 by Geoff5

[Tubby]

G'day Geoff

Many thanks for the reply, it's not easy to rattle the cage sufficiently to elicit a response on this forum, as you may well find out!

It was actually suggested by a mate of mine who drags a biggish Jayco around the place with a cruiser, but not a 200.

It's not something I'm willing to jump into unless it can be proven that it's a necessity.

However, on another note, it has been suggested on this and other forums about beefing up the suspension to increase the vehicle's GVM given that there is potential to exceed the manufacturer's GVM, particularly when towing a big van.

Have you found it necessary to consider that option to give you 'more fat'?

There are other threads on this subject on this forum.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

..... it's not easy to rattle the cage sufficiently to elicit a response on this forum, as you may well find out!....

....It's not something I'm willing to jump into unless it can be proven that it's a necessity.....

..... beefing up the suspension ........increase the vehicle's GVM ...... potential to exceed the manufacturer's GVM.....

Tubby,

Responses - personally, I am disappointed to see so many questions go unanswered - pity really, considering there is a lot of talent, experience and knowledge out there. Anyway....

Re: Auto Transmission cooler - I really don't think you will need it. But that is just a personal opinion, based on my own experience.

Suspension - don't get GVM mixed up with loads and vis-a-versa. (let's say...) If you add suspension to the back of the car, it doesn't mean it can carry any more. The only way to increase the GVM is at the time of purchase, via a Lovells GVM upgrade (there may be others now - but that was the only one available when I purchased mine).

The suspension on the LC200 is (what could be considered) average. Someone said to me today, that I (anyone) should be considering replacing the shocks if they are 3 years old. That is probably about right, especially if some 4WDing is involved - add towing to that and it is a fair statement/observation. Anyway, I digress....

Let me be more direct - because I think you have been given a bum steer (quote "....been suggested on this and other forums about beefing up the suspension to increase the vehicle's GVM...end quote). You can't, (now that you have the car) full stop. Whatever is stated on your rego and compliance plate is the way it is.

What you can do, is improve the handling by changing and adding coils, shocks, increase height, add airbags, etc etc.

I mentioned that I had towed, returning from Perth, when everything was overweight - the back of the car was down (due to the load in the car) and the weight on the axles in the van was higher than compliance. I am not proud of this - but my point is that (except for unloading stuff), I couldn't change the GVM.

What I have done, to improve handling and (should it ever happen again) - added airbags to the back, changed the coils and shocks to allow an increase of 200Kg (no height change, so there is no lift involved). The back bounces around a little more around town with nothing in the back, but certainly nothing to be worried about. It certainly has improved handling when the van is on the back.

And before anyone asks - yes, I use a Weight Distribution hitch (WDH) and yes it was rigged up right. A WDH is a must (imho).

So - bottom line - yes, you can add/change coils and shocks to allow to provide more weight carrying capacity - but don't be under the misunderstanding that it will change your GVM. The total amount you put in the car (weight/mass) and the total amount you can tow (3.5ton) is the way the compliance plate states. The new springs/shocks give you more comfort, handling, ride height, profile of the car, etc.

I hope this assists and as opposed to confuses.

Regards

Geoff

[Tubby]

G'day Geoff

Thanks for the reply.

If you get a chance go to the bushtracker owners forum, click on 'tips on tow vehicles' then 'Toyota 200 series successes and failures'.

Be interested in your thoughts.

Regards

Peter

[SuperDave]

I haven't used PWR oil coolers before, but they are known to be expensive if bought locally. If you do get a PWR cooler get one from the USA as it's cheaper; even though it's still made here...

I'm suprised it doesn't have a cooler stock like the Nissans (well, the real offroaders) do. With no knowledge of the oil temperatures seen it's hard to tell if you need one. Don't bother with the snaking tube coolers as they are useless; refer to link if unsure. To do it properly you'll also need a thermostat. I'd say Toyota knew it would do some towing and produced it suitable for the job, so you probably don't need a cooler.

http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/CatImages/PG09-C1.gif

[Tubby]

Thanks Dave

I think you might right.

I pretty much need conclusive proof that I need the mod.

So far it's going the other way.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

If you get a chance go to the bushtracker owners forum, click on 'tips on tow vehicles' then 'Toyota 200 series successes and failures'.

Be interested in your thoughts.

Hi Tubby/Peter,

I read through it all. There is nothing that I would disagree with. I am not sure which parts you are seeking clarification on.

I did note however (and I stand corrected) that the GVM upgrade appears to be available on existing (already registered) vehicles. When I received mine (Dec 2008), the only option was the Lovell's upgrade (to 3800Kg) - and only on new vehicles before rego. The ARB upgrade wasn't available (because I wanted to do it).

Personally, I have achieved (I think) a similar outcome, but installing airbags (which I leave at 5psi, until loaded up) and changes springs/shocks (in my case adding 200Kg capability). If I was to do to again, I would go for the 400Kg upgrade, but I live and learn these things. Not sure the life of the (in my case Old Man Emu) shocks, but a reliable source suggested that the OEM ones that came with LC200 would be shot after about 3 years - especially if towing and some off road (all of which I do).

I thank you for recommending to go to the Forum, because I was about to install a Kaymar rear bar. But it won't allow the use of a Weight Distribution hitch, so that is now off my list. ARB is my next option.

I am happy to continue the discussion, if I have missed something.

(I did note that BT rather quickly side stepped the issue about GCM (as opposed to GVM). I take his point that he hasn't ever heard anyone being picked up for being over GCM - but I have only ever heard anecodtal reports about people being picked up for being over GVM.....I guess it is all a moot point and kind of irrelevant, until someone gets stopped and can ascertain how the police react. I think, in 90% of the case, common sense would prevail. Not sure....)

Regards

Geoff

[Tubby]

G'day Geoff

It was just the bit about being able to increase the GVM.

I don't think I'll go down that road however, but I might have a chat to ARB about beefing up the rear end a bit as we're to take delivery of a 22' 6" Roma in a couple of weeks.

Already got the HR WDH so shouldn't be too much of a drama, I hope.

Although it was mentioned on the Bushtracker forum that BT suggested that unless one was a professional (truck) driver he wouldn't recommend towing anything over 21' with a 200.

A couple of reasons were given but no elaboration.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

Hi,

I see your point.

As mentioned, I stand corrected, it appears that an increase to the GVM, after registration, can be done and certified. Originally (pre 2009), it could only be done prior to first registration (by Lovell's). Now it appears that ARB can do it, so that the RTA/Dept Transport pass/certify it, to existing vehicles.

Anyway - I think that the GVM increase is all theoretic. I don't mean there is any doubt about its validity - what I mean is, why is (anyone) doing it - to keep the 'powers that be' on their right side. Either the car is capable of handling the towing, or not.

Also, don't misunderstand my apparent flippancy - I think upgrading the suspension, air bags, coils, whatever, is good - when it is for all the right reasons. These could be to make improve the 4WD experience, or to improve the towing capability or capability (or both). If it is just to get a certificate - well, I just think that is a waste of effort.

The other point you raise is why (in BT's opinion) a person without "professional" experience should not tow anything over 22' with a 200 series. The "jumping around at the back" is part of it - where the OEM rear end suspension is soft - but I think BT's opinion comes from the need to be in control of a box on wheels that is significantly longer than the tow vehicle. I think that is the implication with the reference to truck driver (and their training/experience) capability to handle long loads.

Apart from manufacturer's specification (ie: max. towing is 3500Kg, where GCM must not be exceeded), there is a implied "rule" that the tow vehicle should be heavier than the thing being towed - so that the tow vehicle is always in control. (This is not a "rule" at all - it is just an impression or preference in the industry). However, I have heard caravan sales people categorically tell people that their VW Golf can tow a 17' Coromal caravan. I exaggerate, but you get the point.

I tow a 22' Evernew - which (by industry standards) is a heavy van. Certainly I know it is there and I have had issues that need to managed on the road, but if you drive to the conditions and take it easy, until you get a real handle on the weight and characteristics of what is being towed, you will be fine. And yes, a WDH is an absolute must.

From my personal experience and from the little you have mentioned, I would suggest that you

- upgrade rear suspension, to additional 400Kg capability - means new coils and upgrade shocks (ARB will automatically suggest Old Man Emu shocks). This will automatically give you a 25mm lift (I don't think there is a 'no lift' option at 400Kg, but there might be)

- install air bags. Run them at 5 lbs around town (meaning no lift). When the van is on pump them up to about 22, or 25ibs. Its important to this in the right order - put the van on, put the WDH on, make it level. Then pump up the air bags so that it visibly takes the extra weight, so it might raise it about 5mm max. - just when at the take up point is the right amount of air.

- if you are putting on a roo bar, I would also suggest doing the front suspension. To do the front, will mean about 20mm lift - which puts the whole car back on the right plane (assuming you have done the back).

- install a TPMS system (Tyre pressure Management system) - so you can monitor the caravan tyres. They are a long way away and there have been times where people have lost one of the rear wheels and not known about, until the whole rig has become so unstable that it takes them off the road. (My last trip to Perth saw 3 vans off on the side of the road, one was a direct result of a blown rear tyres on the van - it was a BTer too...., being towed by a LC - ouch.)

From all I have heard, the Roma is a good unit. Have a great time with it. Just take it easy (90KM/Hr or less) until you understand what it does and how it reacts. Try out some emergency situations, emergency braking, swerves at low speeds in a controlled (safe) environment, etc. Apologies if I am telling you how to suck eggs.

Regards

Geoff

[Tubby]

G'day Geoff

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply and views on various topics.

I guess the thing that rubs me are the modifications, perceived or otherwise, that need to be done in order to do what the manufacturer says can already be done so long as all structural limitations are not exceeded.

I owned a Patrol for many years and towed a 17' 6" Coromal with no dramas. However in order to tow anything larger, the number of mods required was bordering on the ridiculous so it was decided to upgrade, hence the LC purchase.

I will definitely look at beefing up the rear end but I'd like to get a feel for the rig before I do that to see for myself how the whole thing moves.

We have to drive 1800 klms home after we pick up the van so it will be a good shakedown trip however we'll be hanging around for a couple of days prior to making our way home, just to iron out any bugs that will involve the dealer.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

.....I guess the thing that rubs me are the modifications, .... that need to be done in order to do what the manufacturer says can already be done so long as all structural limitations are not exceeded.....

I guess you are right - but for clarification

- these items are only my opinion - so I would suggest getting a second opinion. Of course, if you go to (someone like ARB)- they have a vested interest in getting you to spend money with them. [Don't get me wrong, I think ARB are great, but you get my point.] I'd suggest finding a forum relevant to your van, there are a number around...and ask the question of what others have done. As a starter, have a look at http://www.goseeaustralia.com.au/forumMessages.asp?Cat=27&ender=0 or http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7432&start=0 I am sure there are others. I haven't read any of these. The other one is LCOOL, which focuses on the car.

- comparing a 17'6" van and a 22'6" van is significantly different. The real point is that when you get up above 22', things are starting to get close to their limit. Roma (from memory) are relatively light (in comparison to some others), but it will be close to 3,000Kg fully laden. You are towing it with a car that weighs 2400Kg, plus fuel, plus people, plus stuff in the back - so about 3,000Kg also.

Now you have a problem - the van weighs the same amount (or worse still) more than the towing vehicle. If the van decided to do something different to the car, you (as the driver) want everything in your favour to get it back in line.

- Out of the box, (again, imho) the LC200 is an awesome car and I think one of THE best on the market for towing. I am confident that it will do you proud and it will tow your Roma quite comfortably. The OEM Shocks and springs will last, maybe 3 years (under the pressures that you will be exposing them to) - so you could drive it for quite some time, without experiencing, or requiring any upgrades. I am nearly certain that after your 1800KM shakedown trip, you'll say to yourself "..what is all the fuss about.." and you'd be right. The mods suggested are based on some pretty extreme conditions, or preferences to be able to avoid extreme conditions.

Good luck with your new purchase - and good luck on your shakedown trip. As long as you are using a Weight Distribution Hitch, everything else can wait, probably a number of years. (but I would suggest the TPMS, that could save you some real grief)

Regards

Geoff

[Tubby]

G'day Geoff

Thanks for the reply.

I've done quite a bit of research and everything you've stated validates everything I know to date.

Thanks for the links, makes for an interesting read.

Agree entirely with a TPMS purchase and will be investing in one.

Will let you know how it all goes however at the moment everything's on hold while we deal with a cyclone.

Regards

Tubby

[Legendts]

G'day Tubby, just been following the conversation with the other bloke who spells his name funny . Geoff and I have had a couple of conversations and I have a similar set up to him, Evernew van 22'6" semi off road and ARB springs and OME sport shocks. One thing I did do to start with, on ARB's advice, was have 400kg springs on the rear but I found this to be very uncomfortable with little or no load and sat the back up too high, so, went to 200kgs no lift and this is much better. If I need a bit more I will fit polyairs to the rear springs, but I know ARB don't endorse them and prefer to use a higher capacity spring, which is fine if you have the van on the back all the time but crap (my opinion) without. I have found the 200kg a good compromise for me and the boss.

I would agree with everything that Geoff (still find it hard to spell his name) has suggested in his above posts.

Cheers mate and good hunting, haggle hard at ARB or anywhere else you go.

The REAL Jeff

[Tubby]

G'day Jeff

Many thanks for the input.

As soon as Yasi's left we'll rebuild the house and then refocus on more important matters, like getting the vehicle sorted.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

Interestingly enough, I went out to AR today, to book in for another round of work.

I am upgrading the front - 100Kg capacity which automatically means the front rises 25mm.

Therefore, I really don't have much choice, but to change the back - you can imagine the problems - head lights would need realigning, the profile of the car would change.

So, what do put on the back.....that gives me approximately the same lift as the front

There is medium springs - 200Kg which I have now (without the lift)

There is heavier springs - 200Kg

There is the 400Kg springs that Jeff was talking about.

Cutting a long story short - I went for 200Kg heavy duty springs - plus new OME (Old Man Emu) Nitrosports shocks.

This is, kind of, middle ground.

[in hindsight - I should have swapped coils with Jeff. Great thing hindsight]

So, Jeff (Tubby) there is your answer. 200Kg either with, or without lift, depending upon what you are doing on the front.

Good luck through the cyclone. We (Canberra) are being battered with squalls, heavy rain and winds at the moment. Strange weather, because it was 38degrees today. Our thoughts and support are with you guys in FNQ

Regards

Geoff

[Legendts]

Firstly for you Tubby, Our thoughts and support are with you in FNQ and hope the insurances all come through for you mate.

On the other issue, Geoff you are going for what I went with 25mm lift at the front with heavy duty no lift 200kg rears and Nitro sports. The guys at ARB did a swap for me on the rear 400kg springs down to the 200. The ride is firmer but suits me fine nowhere near what the 400 were like and you almost needed a step ladder for the wife to get into it. the usual compromise and the ARB guys said they have a "lot" of people who tow vans keep the 400s and swap to them when towing and revert to the 200s when not. He said about $60 I think to change them out each time. at that rate I think I would buy a spring compressor and do it myself but I have found with towing our van the 200s are fine so far and if I need more then I would add polyairs in the rear springs too.

Cheers

Jeff

[Tubby]

G'day Guys

Many thanks for the sentiments, we survived with not a lot of damage.

Been up here a long time and experienced my fair share of cyclones with nary the blink of an eye.

This one, I can tell you we were s......g ourselves.

Anyway, all good. Only got power and the phone back a day or so ago hence my absence.

We're heading off at the weekend to pick up our van so I'll give you a 'heads up' re any suspension issues when we return in a couple of weeks.

Regards

Tubby

[Woodduck5]

Many thanks for the sentiments, we survived with not a lot of damage.

......

We're heading off at the weekend to pick up our van so I'll give you a 'heads up' re any suspension issues when we return in a couple of weeks.

I'm glad all went well, with little damage.

Have a good trip and yes, I'd be interested in your views when you get back.

Regards

Geoff

[VXV8]

I recently fitted a PWR trans cooler and bypassed the radiator cooling trans lines and have checked the trans oil temp and its definetly cooler !