Overly firm ride in 2012 Camry Hybrid

[coolscan]

This thread is prompted by an Australian owner posting on U.S. Camry Hybrid site. I don't know if he follows this forum.

My HL handles big hits very well, but at slow speeds every ripple and irregularity is transmitted. It is the only real gripe I have about it. It is just TOO FIRM !! Tuned for Australian tastes? Whose? Perhaps the motoring journalists, who praise a vehicle if they can go fast and flat through a corner, despite a ride like a go-kart. I cannot believe that the majority of Camry Hybrid owners want this sort of compromise.

It gets wearing after 23K km in 8 months. TOYOTA, are you READING THIS? And don't start me on low profile tyres on luxury models with no choice of higher profile. Do their marketing / design people ever drive outside the capital cities?

Now I have that rant out of my system, I would request my fellow hybrid owners to comment on their feeling about the ride, stating at the same time whether they drive the H (with 60 profile michelins on 16 in rims), or HL (with 55 profile Turanzas on 17 in rims). I am clinging to the idea that I may be able to improve things a bit by going to Michelin Primacy LC, perhaps even changing to 16 in rims.

Thank you in advance - coolscan

[Steveoh]

This thread is prompted by an Australian owner posting on U.S. Camry Hybrid site. I don't know if he follows this forum.

hi coolscan,

Im the poster you are referring to in the other forum, thanks for making me aware of this site!

My car is a Hybrid H with the 16 inch Michelins.

Im sure you would see an improvement with other tyres. I have a feeling these low rolling resistance tyres on the Hybrid (both H and HL) are quite hard and probably compromise the ride a bit in the sake of fuel economy.

From my point of view the ride is too firm for the vehicle's intended purpose. I actually find it annoying. To put my taste in perspective I am 30 years old and have owned some sporty vehicles over the years.

What I dont understand is why they tune it this hard anyway? The low rolling resistance tyres which have low lateral grip means that you cant fully exploit the handling anyway - also the light steering seems to feel at odds with the firm ride.

I was actually hoping that the ride would soften once it starts racking up the kms, but I can see that yours has 23,000km. I wonder if in my case I just need to get used to it, I am also curious about other owners feedback.

The car is simply brilliant, and the ride is the only niggle (and perhaps the issue is amplified because the car is so smooth and serene). Really I would like the car to be more comfortable in the low speed driving that the suspension really has trouble coping with.

I suggest sending feedback to Toyota directly, I knew Holden made a running change to the VE Calais after owner complaints of the hard ride (and also retrofitted some vehicles at owner request).

Edited January 15, 2013 by Steveoh

[coolscan]

Hello again, Steveoh,

I'm a great deal older than you, and I thought it was maybe just me, and that all modern cars rode like this. I have been spoiled after 9 years with a very soft riding (european) brand.

I had michelin primacy LC's on my last vehicle, and they did not cause a hard ride. They did improve fuel consumption over the Dunlops (? SP Sport) they replaced by almost 10%. So a set of tyres with soft sidewalls might improve the ride a bit, but will probably cost an extra $350 over 40K km in fuel. Unfortunately, if the chosen tyres did not soften the ride sufficiently, one would have 40k km or more to regret it. Messing with the suspension is not really an option, so may have to learn to live with it, and go shopping again in 3 years.

Regards, coolscan.

[Dazzling_Darryl]

I find the ride a bit firm in my H with the tyres at 35 PSI. My biggest gripe with the ride is the harshness over broken bitumen.

I thought our previous car (a 2010 Hybrid Camry Luxury) had a more compliant ride and handled broken bitumen better (and without any clatter)

The North West of Tassie has fairly good road surfaces thankfully...

Overall still very happy with the car but do wonder why they didn't pick this up while tuning things...

[Steveoh]

After some extensive driving, I reckon I have traced it to the rear suspension. I reduced the rear tyres to 31 and the ride is better, however still the rear is overly damped.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Steveoh

[coolscan]

After reading Steveoh's post yesterday. and knowing I had to go to town and back (45km each way), I reduced my pressures to 32 front and 31 rear. It did improve low speed compliance a little. I probably noticed less difference because I've been using 33 all round anyway. Not sure that I want to run that low a pressure on a permanent basis, but will leave it for a week or so before deciding.

coolscan.

[Dazzling_Darryl]

I've been running 35 PSI all around in My H since reducing it from the 45 PSI with which it was delivered to me.. I'm going to reduce the rears to 32 PSI and leave the fronts at 35 and see how it goes.

[Steveoh]

For me I feel I have hit the sweet spot with 33 front and 31 rear.

[Dazzling_Darryl]

I adjusted my tyre pressures to 32 PSI in the back and left the fronts at 35 PSI and went looking for rough surfaces ;-)

Definite improvement :-)

They recently dug up our road to put a drain across and resealed it after, but it is slightly raised like a mini speed hump. The H used to shudder if I went over that at speed (but a lot better today)

Plus other rough bitumen was less harsh.. So thanks Steveoh (Hats off to you)

[coolscan]

After a week of 32/31 psi I have concluded that this does improve things a bit, but believe the ride is still unduly firm. Because we are on the highway often, I have just inflated to 34/33 and will let it go down to 33/32 before topping up. A bit leery of lower pressures at highway speeds.

Regards, coolscan.

[Steveoh]

After a week of 32/31 psi I have concluded that this does improve things a bit, but believe the ride is still unduly firm. Because we are on the highway often, I have just inflated to 34/33 and will let it go down to 33/32 before topping up. A bit leery of lower pressures at highway speeds.

Regards, coolscan.

I agree, lower tyre pressures is a band aid solution and still doesn't fix the problem.

I would appreciate it if you could contact Toyota regarding your ride. I really think they should be made aware of this by the owners. I am hoping contact by owners will get Toyota looking at a solution or update. It may be something as simple as the the shocks which are very easy to replace.

http://www.toyota.com.au/email-us?enquiryType=Vehicle

I have already emailed my feedback and am waiting on a reply.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Steveoh

[coolscan]

Done!

coolscan

[prometheus]

I can totally relate to what you guys are talking about; although I don't have a Hybrid Camry.

After having a 1996 2.2 litre Camry for 14 years I bought a 2011 Aurion Touring in late March last year.

The Camry had 14 inch wheels with 185/75 tyres. Yes, kind of laughable by todays standards but it was quite a comfortable car.

From memory, the last set of tyres I had on it were 195/70 tyres.

Anyway, the Aurion Touring has 215/55 tyres on 17inch wheels (the base model ATX having 215/60 tyres on 16 inch wheels)

So, ironically, the base model rides better than the "Touring" model and other "up-spec" models.

Initially I found the ride "bumpy" at low speeds, particularly when decelerating at lights ... like the car was doing a series of little bunny hops and at times I still find the ride too firm and irritating.

I bet you Toyota did the vast majority of its testing on the base model and then threw bigger wheels (alloys) at the rest so that they would look better.

Having played around with the tyre pressures I have currently settled on 36psi for the front and 38psi for the back on Michelin XMV8 tyres.

The AutoSpeed website has some interesting things to say about the trend to lower profile tyres.

http://autospeed.com...intArticle.html

Edited January 27, 2013 by prometheus

[Steveoh]

Yeah the trend towards lower profile tyres does have an impact.

Drove a FG Falcon cab chassis ute with 1 tonne payload suspension and light truck tyres, and dare I say it, it felt softer than the Camry (maybe it had worn suspension - it had a tough life).

Often things need to be fine tuned once a vehicle hits the production line. There is a little bit of trial and error with things like damping and transmission programming.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Steveoh

[coolscan]

It seems to be a fact that in most brands the bog-standard model rides the best. It seems that as one moves up the model range, the rims become bigger and bigger, and the tyre profile lower and lower, to the detriment of ride. Potholed roads are the norm in many parts of the country, and damage to these rims and tyres is more frequent than with higher profiles: and the ride becomes HARD.

I'm elderly but still average 30K km a year. I'm willing to pay extra for comfort and a few luxuries. My wife has arthritic hands, and we want powered seats (plural). Since we share the driving, memory driver seat is nice. Those things alone narrow the choices considerably, and what's left has those abominabe tyres, and probably an equally abominable (in N.Qld anyway) sunroof!

Now, I'm sure we are a far from unique couple. There must be many other people out there like us, who would like a soft and comfortable ride while progressing from A to B sedately, rather than go-carting round corners at speed. Manufacturers do sports packages with stiffer suspensions - how about comfort packages with softer suspension?

I still think the best riding vehicle I've had was a 1993 Falcon wagon; 14 in wheels, long wheelbase, rear semi-elliptic springs. No comment on other aspects though.

As for form over function, just look at general visibility in today's designs. Look at the new Mazda 6 line. Improved engines / drivetrains, but they have produced a bigger vehicle with less boot space, and a temporary spare; and of course the top models have 19 in wheels.

Toyota generally still use reasonable profile tyres, but the suspension tuning is not what many buyers expect, given the type of person who buys the product.

Here endeth the rant. Regards, coolscan.

[Steveoh]

I have a feeling the firmness may be there to support the weight of the hybrid battery (but in my opinion the firmness has gone too far). Looking forward to the response from Toyota.

[trentmeyer23]

Why buy the car if you don't like the way it drives?

[Steveoh]

Why buy the car if you don't like the way it drives?

Simply one of those things I didnt pick up (or chose to ignore lol) when test driving. Like with anything in life, you do make assumptions when you are presented with a new product. I could comfortably assume that a Landcruiser can go offroad and a Hilux can carry a load - but I wouldnt necessarily test it on a test drive. I made the same assumption that when buying a Camry that it would be a fairly comfortable car, so on the test drive was more looking at the room, visability, power/acceleration, features and getting my head around driving a hybrid.

I also did extensive research reading reviews and no where did the overly firm suspension really get any attention - so simply it was not something I noticed until I lived with the car for a while and noticed the harshness on the roads I travel.

I dont regret my choice at all, as the Camry Hybrid is a brilliant car - I am getting stupidly good economy in a car that is roomier and faster than most other cars on the road. I just figure that Toyota should get real world feedback on the vehicle, if I was them I would love hearing from owners in ways the car can be improved. I am also hoping that any tuning changes could be applied to other cars retrospectively.

[Hiro]

It would be interesting to see what happens a couple of months down the track to the people who lowered their tyre pressures, if wear has significantly increased. Lowering tyre pressures away from a factory setting is a band-aid solution that can cause long term problems, despite it being a bit uncomfortable there is a reason why Toyota went with the wheel, tyre and suspension combination that they did (decreased rolling resistance rather than ride comfort).

[Dazzling_Darryl]

It would be interesting to see what happens a couple of months down the track to the people who lowered their tyre pressures, if wear has significantly increased. Lowering tyre pressures away from a factory setting is a band-aid solution that can cause long term problems, despite it being a bit uncomfortable there is a reason why Toyota went with the wheel, tyre and suspension combination that they did (decreased rolling resistance rather than ride comfort).

I'm running 35 PSI in the Front and 32PSI in the back (I will monitor it for wear but don't think at 32PSI in the rear I should have too many probs)

[Dazzling_Darryl]

Why buy the car if you don't like the way it drives?

Simply one of those things I didnt pick up (or chose to ignore lol) when test driving. Like with anything in life, you do make assumptions when you are presented with a new product. I could comfortably assume that a Landcruiser can go offroad and a Hilux can carry a load - but I wouldnt necessarily test it on a test drive. I made the same assumption that when buying a Camry that it would be a fairly comfortable car, so on the test drive was more looking at the room, visability, power/acceleration, features and getting my head around driving a hybrid.

I also did extensive research reading reviews and no where did the overly firm suspension really get any attention - so simply it was not something I noticed until I lived with the car for a while and noticed the harshness on the roads I travel.

I dont regret my choice at all, as the Camry Hybrid is a brilliant car - I am getting stupidly good economy in a car that is roomier and faster than most other cars on the road. I just figure that Toyota should get real world feedback on the vehicle, if I was them I would love hearing from owners in ways the car can be improved. I am also hoping that any tuning changes could be applied to other cars retrospectively.

Great Answer Steve...

I drove from Launceston Tasmania to Devonport on the Frankford Highway yesterday at a "good" speeed.. The surface is only average but my "H" handled it pretty well, ride wise.

This winding back road is the type of road they use for Targa Tasmania and my "H" gobbled it up with much aplomb .. Nice ;-)))

[Steveoh]

So how is everyone's ride going? Gotten used to it?

I'm tempted to see if there is a parts list to show the rear suspension differences between normal Camry and Hybrid Camry. I'm tempted to take it to a suspension place, I'm just not sure if the hardness comes from the springs or the shocks or both.

[Dazzling_Darryl]

Hi Steve,

I've done almost 15,000 kms now (must book a service) and I am happy enough overall. I am back to running 34 PSI all around.

Tassie's roads are better than those is some States (particularly the one that have had a lot of flooding over the last few years).

I couldn't be bothered with the possible insurance/warranty complications associated with any suspension mods (or the cost)

Good luck with your investigations though.

[coolscan]

Just over 28K km and it's much the same. Running 34/33. Probably getting used to the firm ride (but not appreciating it). After 9 years of hydraulic suspension in Citroens everything seems firm. Appreciating all other aspects of the car, especially the reliability.

Dazza, ask them what grade of oil they are planning to use. They put 10W-30 in mine, not too bad in N. Qld summer, but in Tassie in winter? Obviously the bulk oil they use in everything. Increases fuel consumption specially for short trips.

[Steveoh]

Sometimes I do think it is a bit in my head. I know they sell 500 - 1000 Camry Hybrids a month and really not many others have seem to have noticed anything wrong.

I think I will get used to it too, the car is still a baby and I am sure the suspension will soften with age. Im not too concerned with the warranty or insurance as cars get legal modifications all the time with no issue, it is just that I would have to commit to spending money to have something installed that I cant test out before hand. So for now I will leave it. I think once I get a few more kms on the clock I will hopefully notice a difference.

Really love the car cant get over the fuel consumption on a car this big. Funny, I jumped into another car the other day and I had to use the key to start it - a key? what kind of primitive device is this?