SOLVED: Camry CSI 4cyl 1996 ECU injector problem

[Sploddy]

Do you know how to check the computer codes yourself?

Full instructions and codes can be found in the manual. Do you have access to one?

Yes. Checked it out no faults code shown.

Note: It would appear that Toyota has a multitude of types of ECU, connectors, and test boxes for the 5S-FE 4i engine.

So far I have not found any data relating to my particular ECU and car. I think the Haynes circuits and harness/plug plans relate more to the USA/Canada cars*. The diagrams are only described as "Typical" and should not be relied on for what is in your car.

Even the test box layout is different. However there was layout label in the lid showing E1 & ET1 test points.

Probably the differences also relate to whether the vehicle has power windows, central locking and a many other features.like airbags, manual or automatic etc.Even the pin outs are different between variously number ECUs although marked 5S-FE

It is essential to ensure you get an identical Part number and socket pin count.

*Ref: to California Emission Laws.

[Sploddy]

BANG! Weds April 1 After running the car around for a week and including a venturous trip via Spearwood and on to Armadale and back to Perth some 60km round trip we had 150km on the trip counter since I did a temp repair job on the ECU. Today we went to Cannington Shopping Centre approx 3.1KM and as we drove into the car park the wife said, somethings burning. Anyway did our shopping and started the car to return home. car only running on two cylinders again. (rude word) did a trial run around the park and managed to get out onto the highway and headed for home, luckily was able to fit into the traffic with ease and general speed was limited to 60K max. After leaving the main highway took some back roads to home and sailed into the car port with very little interuption to any traffic behind us. - Still waiting for the new transistors to arrive and should be here tomorrow or after Easter on Tuesday.

So this time we got around 155km B4 the transistor on 1 and 4 blew again.

Having checked out all other possibilities it has to be either INJ 1 or 4 breaking down. After I got home I checked the case of the ECU near the Transistor heat sink and it was very hot.

I will check the ECU tomorrow and confirm its the same transistor. - Luckily I have not re-installed the glove box etc :)

Enjoy your Easter :)

Dave

Next step is to remove all the injectors (and number them!) and get them to a servicing centre in Perth where they can be fully cleaned, tested and O rings replaced and if 1 or 4 is suspect have it replaced. - Not sure where in Perth yet. I have found USA Toyota site that gives an excellent nut by nut description on how to access the injector delivery bar and remove it complete with the injectors. (Plus how to release the fuel pressure prior to disconnecting the fuel line)

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/103-3rd-4th-generation-1992-1996-1997-2001/339863-diy-fuel-rail-injectors-removal-4cyl-i4-5s-fe-gen4-camry-pics.html

[trentmeyer23]

Put a clean rag over the open cylinder head if you use that method.

Also, your injectors will likely look different to those shown.

[OldMech]

All very good David. I would suspect that any static testing done by anyone would not show a fault in those injectors suspected. They probably will break down only during operation and by the heat they are subjected to. . Either shorts occuring in their individual windings or to the body of each injector.

You will most likely be advised to replace all four.

(I have driven into Perth city on the Great Eastern Highway on two very enjoyable occasions. In two different Sigma 'Station Wagons' - from Melbourne. And later, drive on to Darwin. No faults.)

Edited April 1, 2015 by OldMech

[Jim.]

Sorry to read the problem is recurring, even though that was likely to happen due to the original cause not yet being located.

Like "Old Mechanic" says, the problem injector is more likely to break down when hot than when cold. If it is that of course; I still suspect one of them.

What is done when this is suspected? Can they be heated and checked then? I don't know. Perhaps they are not expensive to replace?

[Sploddy]

I was prepared for this to happen, but not on such a short trip of 3km. Though that in itself was good thing as I was able to "nurse" the car home. I agree will you Jim and all who have offered advice and suggestions that it can only be temperature related problem with 1 or 4 injector. Well, three strikes and they are "out" -- Last night I located on EBay from a Perth source a set of genuine Denso re-manufactured injectors (4) for $100 inc post. I have written to confirm compatability...

STOP Press!

Just received this from the seller.

Quote

The 1996 Toyota Camry Csi 5SFE 4I engine had a few injector variants.
You will need to check the part number on the injector.
These are compatible with the following part numbers.

23209-74040 - Yellow
23209-74100 - Olive green
23209-74100 - Dark green

Unquote

Mine are dark green

More later....; Dave

[Jim.]

The price is alright I guess.

Are you going to go ahead and purchase them?

[Sploddy]

The price is fairly good for remanufacturered injectors. ATM we are exchanging information and just taken photo of injector and located the Pt No. mine is 23250-74100. Dk Green. Waiting on reply as to whether the ones he has are compat or it he can rebuild mine if not.

If he can supply. Yes I will definitely go ahead and buy. At this stage I can see no alternative. It has to be the injectors..

:)

[Sploddy]

Confirmed with seller that he can supply injectors. --- Purchased and Posted today, very helpful seller. Have arranged for old injectors to be sent to him and they will do a full test and rebuild.

Old injectors came out of the car with no problems. Took about an hour all up. 1 2 3 all reading 14.0 ohms and 4 13.8ohms on a digital multimeter. Have also removed the ECU and taken out both pulse driver transistors ready for new ones, when they arrive.

Seller said it was quite possible for an injector to fail under operating conditions with engine temperature rise. The replacement ones are rebuilds and fully tested to Denso specifications.

Next week should see the car back on the road. :)

[OldMech]

A nice Easter background Dave. A happy ending coming up, .... soon.

[Sploddy]

Old injector removal. Note 30mm box spanner for cam box cover removal.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Sploddy

[trentmeyer23]

Did you retrieve the other 3 lower injector cushions from the cylinder head?

[Sploddy]

Not at the moment. Will do that when I get the new injectors. Cam box cover has been temporarily replaced and input ports protected by placing injectors back into the ports. Should get the new ones Tues/weds next which come complete with new cushions/o-rings. I will also repair both ECUs I have with a pair of new switching transistors for 1&4 and 2&3

[Jim.]

Did you retrieve the other 3 lower injector cushions from the cylinder head?

Well spotted Trent!

[Sploddy]

Erratum: Somewhere after my first post the Injector wiring got changed. Please note Injectors 1 and 3 are fed by the white wire and 2 and 4 are fed by the yellow wire from the ECU as initially stated.

Decided to check out other peripheral items including the cam box cover and found that internally around the edges of the PCV plate, esp the back area and also the front area. a considerable build up of oily carbon deposits were found. These have been removed.

Also the PCV valve input was total blocked with carbon. This was left to soak overnight in degreaser solvent and washed out and now has free movement of the valve. However this will be replaced at the first opportunity

The extenal PCV pipework is clean and free from contaminants.

Before and After. Not perfect, could do with a good steam clean or sonic bath. But the heavy stuff has been removed.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Sploddy

[OldMech]

And that 'cover vacuum hose'. Gets terribly detiorated, hardened and blocked.

Just browsing the Haynes manual. It is very good isn't it.

[Jim.]

Deleted text.

Only now do I understand what you mean by "changed". I think you meant to say the wiring was "replaced".

Enough to cause this old man some early morning confusion!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Jim.

[Sploddy]

The original post stated correctly that there were two wires coming from the ECU: White feeding 1 and 3 and Yellow feeding 2 and 4.

Due to a typo in one of the posts the designations were inadvertantly changed to 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 which is incorrect.

Physically and in the diagrams 1 & 3 (white) and 2 & 4 (yellow) is correct.** Yeh the joys of antiquity :) Sometimes the fingers do not type what the brain is thinking. I will be glad when this saga is over.

One thing I will say, I have learned a heck of a lot about the Camry engine. As Laurie mentioned the manual is very good and goes into great detail. It is quite incredible the variants of injectors and ECUs, harness plugs and sockets that have been used by Toyota. They seem to have absolutely no consistancy. It is absolutely essential to obtain the "exact" replacement type number of each and every part. They even changed the pin out configuration of the harness plugs also the number of pins on the plugs.

** On my particular vehicle!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Sploddy

[Sploddy]

So far I feel I am on track... The next few days will see the arrival of a set of spare transistors for the ECU, a set of new injectors and a new PCV valve and grommet. I also have a new "dogbone" upper engine mount coming as the original has a split rubber insert.

The cam box cover has been degunked and the PCV channels are clear or carbon buildup and free flowing as are the interfacing hoses.

The injector fuel supply manifold has also been fully cleaned and checked for any damage..

I am 99% confident that either injector 1 or 3 is the culprit and is intermittenly shorting out. I have done extensive checking of the harnesss and the wiring, it is in good condition and continuity.

It may be some time before I get the old injectors checked and tested. But will report back when I get a "round tuit" :)

Hopefully I can report that the car is back up and running by the end of this week.

[OldMech]

'Onward and upward' - or something - David. Sounding all good.

Let us know.

:)

[Sploddy]

On the road again... Yesterday the postie called laden with goodies. Injectors, transistors and top engine mount. In between showers got everything back together and both ECUs repaired with new power transistors. This morning hooked up the fuel lines and PCV tubing and replaced the cam box cover and fitted the ECU. Reconnected the battery and the car started on 3rd crank as the fuel supply was restored. Engine running very smoothly, idle revs up a tad over 1000RPM. Also quite a noticable improvement in engine reaction to the accelerator.

Did a 5k test run round the block and also noticed the "dead spot" when accelerating in first gear has disappeared. (Not that I intend to do wheelies - I have far greater respect for my tyres and transmission) But if I need that little bit extra its comforting to know its there.

I can only hope that this is the conclusion of a somewhat expensive exercise in getting other people to fix the problem without success.

My DIY cost for parts $175.00. Only further running will confirm that there was a faulty injector breaking down under working temps. However I will be sending the old injectors to my supplier to have them fully tested, but funds are depleted for the time being, so this may be quite a while

.

Normally injectors work or they don't and behave badly. It seems no one has experienced an injector that breaks down intermittently and blows one of the driver transistors, at least not on this forum anyway.

I know one thing for sure, it was quick and steep learning curve dealing with EFI engines. But it was worth the effort!

Only time will tell -- Meanwhile I will continue to keep a spare ECU in the glove box 'just in case' :)

Cheers Dave. (Perth WA)

[OldMech]

Very good news David. Fingers crossed. As you would know anything electrical can be intermittent, shorting or open circuiting. One reason I gave away TV Service years back. The fault would disappear as I pulled up outside the house!! You would know also that the fuel line can be primed at a socket near the firewall.A very handy facility. Yes I see you're getting rain. We got some heavy yesterday here in Melb.

Again good luck.

Laurie.

Laurie Edward on Facebook.

[Jim.]

Dave,

Good news. I does sound like you have a good grasp of the EFI system indeed. Keep us posted after you do some driving distance with the vehicle - we too would like to know if the problem has been eliminated.

Laurie,

I did not know about the fuel prime valve! I'm assuming it is a bleed valve, is that correct? Thanks for that, I'll have a look for mine this morning.

Jim.

[Sploddy]

One is never too old to learn something new.. When I left school at the age of 16, my headmaster said to my father "Mr S, that is the end of your son's education" My father replied, "Mr B. you are very wrong, it is the start of his education, all you have done is given him a basic platform on which to learn for the rest of his life" I have always remembered that and applied it to everything I did, hobbies, work and leaisure activities. Later I went on to gain Higher Certificates, Diplomas and other Qualifications.

Regarding the prime valve, my Camry does not have one, as mentioned above, it would appear that the 96, & 97 models went through a large developement phase, whilst the 5S-FE 4I 2.2L engine was the common 4 cylinder engine, it was modfied and changed in many ways (as I found out with the numerous types of injectors used) Also the ECUs varied in a number of formats of wiring and harness configuration. It is essential when obtaining parts that you obtain the "identical" part number for your vehicle. Alternatively check with your seller as to compatibility. The new injectors I am running are yellow capped not green as the originals, but the second part of the ID # is an identical number, (74100) which the seller advised was OK.

As the vehicle battery had been disconnected for a number of days prior to removing the injectors there was no necessity to release the fuel pressure when removing the fuel lines. In the handbook Toyota recommends to remove the negative battery lead before doing any major work on the engine/electronics. This is a recommended procedure on virtually most makes of cars. However if you have thief protected radios or air bags, make sure you have the reset code and have the airbags reset with a special tool. (my Camry has neither)

As I mentioned the fuel "auto" primed with no issues, 3 short cranks and it burst into life. I will give updates as time progresses, the first 200K or so is going to be the test.

Failures were as follows, with a loaded camper in hilly country 50km and 20km. The recent 3rd failure, unloaded flat driving a total of 150km made up of 4 journies, the final only 3.6km from start to bang.

Out of interest I have read about 96 Camrys having refuelling problems, when filling the tank with petrol, the pump keeps shutting down, it does not happen on all pumps. One forum went on at great lengths (Including replacing the fuel inlet pipe!) without really coming up with the very simple answer. Which is; do not put the nozzle deep into the filler pipe, place it half way and hold it down towards the the cap rim. This allows the internal air to escape and not trigger the auto cut-off of the fuel supply! I was having that problem with 2 of the pumps at my local outlet and the Manager told me that a number of earlier Camry experienced this problem!

Dave.

[Sploddy]

The latest information: Received the PCV valve today and installed that with the new grommet. A couple of days ago, hitched the trailer on the car and went and picked up an arcade game console** on behalf of my son. Fairly heavy and a two man lift job. 32K round trip, followed by 42k round trip to return my son to his unit south of Perth. 270Km now on the tripmeter since the injectors installed.

The engine idle revs have stabilised at around 800 rpm normal and goes up to 1000rpm when the AC is on. No sign of any temperature rise of the case of the ECU where the heat sinking is done for the Inj Transistors, remaining cool at all times. I think I can now safely re-instal the glove box and panelling.

My next post will be after I have had the old injectors fully checked out. When that will be I am not sure. I need to fix a couple of other issues on the car, which takes priority of finances.

Cheers Dave.

** He wants me to help him "fix it", apparently based on a computer system, got huge touch screen.