60 series 2H Diesel Never Missed a Beat Until Now

[DavidP]

Hi Guys,

I bought a 60 series Cruiser new 25 years ago and it has been amazing for all those years.

It is a 4 Litre Diesel Non Turbo with about 300k on the clock.

The Problem:

Driving to the airport the other morning reasonably cold weather say 8c.

Early morning (still dark)

Every 8 to 10 seconds the engine misses. Not konk out just a miss.

I put the high beam on and it becomes more frequent.

I varied the speed 60 , 80, 100Km but this made little or no difference.

Sitting in the car park, stationary at idle. It is still doing it. Missing every 8-10 seconds.

I turn the headlights off and the missing stops and the engine runs smoothly again.

It has literally not missed a beat for 300,000 KM

Any ideas what could be causing this?

Thanks

David

Edited August 12, 2014 by DavidP

[GC_AUS]

Hi David,

its an odd 1 agree - I would have a close look at the shut off solenoid & the push rod that closes down the engine - i think they do go out of adjustment after some time. Otherwise I suspect some electrical issue with something that has slowly vibrated loose or built up resistance in a contact perhaps.

Try Lcool dot org as well as someone there has probably come across a similar problem.

a sticking injector would give that effect in a 1-3 cylinder engine but not in yours - I would run some injector cleaner through to see if that makes any difference but I doubt it - its just something to cross of the list

strange that it happens with electrical load on - that brings me back to the resistance question mark

i'll be watching to see what you find

best of luck

Gary.

[DavidP]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking along the same lines as you but didn't want to say anything here that would bias other peoples opinions straight off. I can't think how an injector problem could be effected by other electrical load. I had the alternator go a couple of years ago and I know it takes hardly any voltage to hold the fuel shutoff solenoid open. I drove home after clutch starting it and after an hours drive the blinkers wouldn't even flash so the battery was nearly dead flat but the engine was still going :)

When I think about it I hardly ever drive at night so this problem could have been bu8ilding over several months and without the lights on I would not notice. I have done a bit of googeling and I can see that the solenoid is part of the injector pump. First think I will do it check that connection and measure the voltage at that point.

Does anyone know what a good / normal voltage is at that point?

Also does anyone know where the other end of that wire is connected?

When I was testing in the car park I could hear what sounds like a relay opening and closing similar to the one you hear when you are waiting for the glow plugs to warm up pre start.

So I'd say I have a dirty connection somewhere or some other electrical component is dirty / tired.

I'm out of town this week so I won't get to try any diagnosis until the end of next week but I definitely will reply here with the answer when I find it or more questions as they form :)

Edited August 12, 2014 by DavidP

[GC_AUS]

no worries David,

yeah yeah - electrical,- just for peace of mind check the voltage from the alternator & chase it through the system - I just wonder whether some relay isn't getting enough or maybe it got tired after 25 years.... You'd think Toyota would think of that hey....

there's a surprising amount of relay's up under the dash If I recall on that model

maybe just don't use the lights....

all the best mate

G.

[DavidP]

I used to say I've had the car for 3 dogs 2 wives 1 clutch and never had the head off.

The only one that has changed is the dogs.

You gotta love a clutch that lasts 300k. I had it out once befor I did a Simpson desert trip at around 150k and the mechanic was pained to tell me it was still ok. So I told him to put it back and it is still going.

But now Im off topic. :)

I'll post the answer in a week or two or I'll be driving around in the dark.

[GC_AUS]

Hmmmm.... 2 wives.... that's brave

I knew a guy that had 5 but he's dead now

cant imagine what killed him

[DavidP]

Sequential not concurrent :)

[DavidP]

I have been looking around for similar problems and I came across this post.

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/44702-60-series-diesel-engine-stutter/?hl=stutter

Sadly no solution, only one reply. No wonder it sounded like a familiar problem to Gary :)

I'm a bit surprised that this question (this post) get on the top of google's hit list when I search similar key words.

After thinking about this some more I had my radiator replaced a couple of weeks ago and they noticed that the alternator had come off its mounts while doing that job. I wonder if something didn't get connected back up properly.

Radiator guy doing auto electrician work. Sounds risky. He could have shorted somthing or fried some delicate little bit.

The plot thickens. I'm a bit reluctant to take it straight to an auto electrician and have them start replacing bits.

[GC_AUS]

sequential...

yeah sure I believe you...

Ha that's pretty funny - I had completely forgotten that other post - just as well I gave the same suggestions hey!

at least you can tell who actually reads their email..

can you measure the output from the alternator? - should be easy if you can drive a multimeter - they are like a cattle prod but different.

Alternatively....

"alternatively" you could take your alternator out of the vehicle & take it to a different autoelec & have them test it under load for which they have a machine quite different to a cattle prod.

that will confirm the alternator question mark & then you can move on from there through the system.

I'm still on the electrical front but just for curiosity run your eye over the fuel line to see there is no crushed line or something weird like that which is starving the fuel to such a degree as to cause the miss. it would have to be a kinked rubber line or obviously very squashed metal line.

does this car sit around in extreme tropical conditions by any chance? you can get a black fungus that grows in diesel which could cause your symptom - this will be obvious by the nasty black crap that comes out of the fuel filter when you remove it. - most diesel additives have a fungicide to stop it these days.

boat engines will often starve with mould if they have sat in tropics & have the dreaded black gunge in the lines - it clogs the filter so hence starves the motor.

Diesels of that vintage are pretty straight forward once they are running - its just fuel / air & compression. granted automotive ones have solenoids which make them easier to shut down but there isn't much that could make that engine stop once its started & running ok. 8 deg isn't cold forthat motor by any means so not likely to be anything to do with cold.

how about lift off the air inlet once its running to cross that off - I've never seen a 2H stop from a blocked air filter but normally you would have figured that out by the crazy amount of smoke coming out if it were blocked - they are hard to kill. if the filter is clogged with a dead rat or something then the engine will breathe a bit better without that

just another thing to cross off is oil pressure? - again pretty simple motor so as long as there is some pumping through then that shouldn't be an issue

I am still listening so may the force be with you!

Edited August 18, 2014 by GC_AUS

[GC_AUS]

Hmmmm....... thinking

personally I keep my "delicate little bits" away from auto electricians but then these days there are a few girls doing that job so what ever

alternator off its mounts.... just check you have a good earth both with the alternator & also the earth strap / cable to the body from the battery. with this actually go to the trouble of remove & replace - sometimes they get a crusty build up underneath the bolted tab & just making sure its tight doesn't do the trick. I doubt it but a dodgy negative return might cause something strange to be happening somewhere in the rest of the electrical circuit.

[DavidP]

Problem Solved

I started the car today and this time I had to turn everything on to reproduce the problem.

I'm talking high beam, am fm radio, UHF radio, rear window demister, aircon, fan.

Perhaps the temperature effects things as it was harder to reproduce at around 20c today.

While all this stuff was turned on I watched the fuel shut off lever cycle back and forward all on its own.

As soon as the engine misses the leaver snaps back to the run position before the engine has a chance to stall.

The thing that moves this leaver is called the Engine Control Unit in the manual but most of the online posts I have seen call it an EDIC.

I couldn't find much online about these symptoms except one post that said it was caused by a problem with the earth strap.

I could see one strap from the alternator to the engine block and another from the negative battery terminal to the body then the same cable goes on to the engine block.

They both seemed clean(ish) and tight. I removed the negative terminal and both connections to the body an the block and cleaned everything with wire brush and sandpaper. I also gave the crimped connections a bash with a hammer to make sure they were still tight.

Put it all back together again and I couldn't reproduce the problem. It may be a different story on a cold dark morning.

So at least for now I'll call it fixed. If it does it again I do the altenator earth next.

I hope this helps someone else and I'm glad I tried this fix before taking it to an Auto Electrician as I'm sure they would have started replacing things before cleaning the earth strap. I have herd that EDIC thing is hugely expensive if you go for a new one.

David

[GC_AUS]

Excellent news David!,

that's exactly the gizmo I was thinking of but I had no idea what it was called - there is a few pictures of it if you search "edic repair" & you should find a link to one blog called "Sandcruiser" & also some more bits n pieces on IH8Mud forum.

there should be another earth from memory running form the gearbox or thereabouts to the chassis rail but I haven't been under there for a long time so you would have to look.

Usually you get that problem with the earth points after a run across the desert or in salty environment - its like an electrolysis reaction

good to hear of another 60 happily on the road

all the best

G.

[DavidP]

It has been across the Simpson twice, once in either direction, the last time was in 2005. I can't believe that is coming up 10 years ago.

When I lived in Sydney it was even stolen twice, used in a robbery and been in a police chase (it got away). I herd the thieves were driving on the footpath so the cops let them go.

Now it lives a quiet life with me out on the farm and we fight rust together :)

I bought a 45 series Troopie to keep her company.

[Bill W]

David,

Is the problem still solved? Did the earth strap clean up finally fix the problem? I have just seen your post and I have exactly the same problem with my old hj47 cruiser. I could see the EDIC switching the engine off then on (only when the lights are on) and believed it was the alternator at fault. The Amp meter doesn't seem to be working but the battery does not run down either so I thought the alt output was just low. I didn't treat it as urgent as I very rarely use the "old girl" (the cruiser that is!) at night.

Cheers.

Bill W.

[DavidP]

Hi Bill,

Yes it solved the problem. I haven't done a lot of night driving since but every now and then I turn on everything just for fun :)

I wasn't expecting it fix the problem as all the connections looked reasonable when I pulled them apart.

There were three points to clean. The earth strap in my HJ60 connects to the body and then the same cable goes on to the engine block.

Obviously the negative terminal on the battery go a shine up as well.

I used a bit of sand paper on all the connections to get them back to shiny metal on all sides.

I discovered the battery tray was half rusted out while I was in there and that job is still waiting for me.

On my old FJ45 there are two separate earth cables from memory but it is only a petrol.

If I was you I'd certainly do this simple job before even thinking about trying anything else.

Good Luck and I'm keen to know if it works for you too.

David

[GC_AUS]

this is back again...

for your battery tray try POR15

expensive but its good stuff

[DavidP]

Good idea but it is plastic coated Weetbix under there. :)

I have a lump of sheet metal. I plan to bang up a new one.

I found some Stainless steel replacements un the US but cost way too much by the time I get it here.

[GC_AUS]

Hi David,

right I see what you mean - I just went looking myself,-

they seriously charge $195 for that?

some say... that's a rip off!!!

mate I make SM parts all the time & that part should be more like $30-50 including the postage

send me a PM if you like & we'll sort something out

Rgds

G.

[DavidP]

Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes. Might even start a new topic :)

[GC_AUS]

No worries -

I have already sent the part off to get a price back will let you know

Rgds

G.

[JoMo]

DavidP,

I'm not one for Forums but i got desperate recently and found this thread.

We've been on the road in Rosie our red 60 series (similar to yours, Deisel, no turbo, coming up to 300k) for 3 months now and have done over 14000km with no problems.

Last week it started hunting whilst accelerating for no particular reason. I checked for fuel leaks but the surging was so regular (every 4 seconds) i knew it had to be electrical. Also with the spotlights on, the 'jolting' would be way more noticeable.

We were getting worried as we were working in a community 3 hours north of Broome and were a long way from a mechanic, let alone parts. Also we have an ambitious itinerary which dumps us in Coral Bay for Christmas.

Anyway, after reading your post, i cleaned as many earth straps as possible with some emery cloth and a rag. The starter motor strap was the worst but the ones going from the dual batteries were bolted to a painted surface which was probably not doing it any favours.

An hour later and no money spent, it works!!

We have driven 250km and I've done a night run with as many electrics on as possible and there's no surging whatsoever.

I had to join up on here to say thankyou because you may have just saved christmas!

Joe & Saar

[DavidP]

Hi Joe,

I wish I was out on tour :). The Simpson Desert sticker on my windows says 2005.

I'm glad my post here helped you out. My Connections all looked solid when I took them off. I still can't believe this fix solves the problem.

I see I drifted a bit off topic in "general conversation" To complete the thread I have since bought a Super Cheap Auto battery tray and with some creative bending and a couple of spacers, I made it fit my car and is solid as a rock. It wasn't a simple job but I enjoyed saving a few bucks while doing the job.

I always say if I could buy another new 60 I would!

David

[JoMo]

It's amazing how many people come up to us and praise the 60 series, mostly the grey nomads (the gems in the crown of australian society) We stumbled upon it as it was a cheap buy but there seems to be some great examples still left out there.

Hopefully Rosie will keep us going for another 20k back to Victoria. Perhaps I'll be back on here for more advice and I'm sure more will benefit from the thread.

Thanks again and have a great christmas.

Joe & Saar

[DavidP]

I also bought a 45 series **** it must be 8 years ago now. It's an 84 model. I purchased it as a hobby and I restored it as original as I could. I call it The Limo as it is a troop carrier. I.e. longer than the shortie.

People wave to me while im driving along. Not just the steering wheel finger, i mean propper waves. At first i thought the car was on fire.

People come up to me in the street and always ask me the same question "is it a Diesel"?

Sadly is isn't. I just say my other car is :)

You guys have a safe trip back and be glad your not in the 45. 20k is a long way :)

David

[Dungeon Dweller]

On 8/23/2014 at 5:51 PM, DavidP said:

Problem Solved

I started the car today and this time I had to turn everything on to reproduce the problem.

I'm talking high beam, am fm radio, UHF radio, rear window demister, aircon, fan.

Perhaps the temperature effects things as it was harder to reproduce at around 20c today.

While all this stuff was turned on I watched the fuel shut off lever cycle back and forward all on its own.

As soon as the engine misses the leaver snaps back to the run position before the engine has a chance to stall.

The thing that moves this leaver is called the Engine Control Unit in the manual but most of the online posts I have seen call it an EDIC.

I couldn't find much online about these symptoms except one post that said it was caused by a problem with the earth strap.

I could see one strap from the alternator to the engine block and another from the negative battery terminal to the body then the same cable goes on to the engine block.

They both seemed clean(ish) and tight. I removed the negative terminal and both connections to the body an the block and cleaned everything with wire brush and sandpaper. I also gave the crimped connections a bash with a hammer to make sure they were still tight.

Put it all back together again and I couldn't reproduce the problem. It may be a different story on a cold dark morning.

So at least for now I'll call it fixed. If it does it again I do the altenator earth next.

I hope this helps someone else and I'm glad I tried this fix before taking it to an Auto Electrician as I'm sure they would have started replacing things before cleaning the earth strap. I have herd that EDIC thing is hugely expensive if you go for a new one.

David

here's an update on the fix.

i had the same problem with my HJ60 . edic switch flicking the injector pump to stop and then resetting.... rinse and repeat....etc whenever i engaged the headlight circuit.

followed the above instructions but this did not help. checked voltage of battery and then alternator at idle and at 2000 rpm, tightened belts, isolated different systems to check if they were at fault, etc, eliminated all these without finding source of the problem. 

then.....finally found the source of the problem to be the Voltage Regulator.

you can test this by disconnecting the voltage regulator and running the vehicle on the batteries' power alone, then reproducing the situation that causes the edic malfunction. with the voltage regulator disconnected everything ran fine, no edic malfunction, only there was no charge from the alternator(as you would expect). 

new voltage regulator cost $90 from ashdown-ingram.

i gave mine some "shock therapy" to get me going again, til i can pick up new regulator. this seemed to clear the fault... at least temporarily.

basicly just pulled the VR plug out while it was still live, then put it back together with the engine switched off. started engine and "magic"... off we go again.

this may not be recommended, clearly it would be better to replace it outright if you identify it as the problem, but still.... i'm back on the road till i can pick one up tomorrow. 8)