Sludge in Engine

[Fox Mulder]

The Oil light in my dad's Avalon started comming on, when we start the car, but going off after about 2 seconds. We checked the manual and it said that this was normal.

Then 1 week later whilst driving it the oil light came on and then the engine started making very bad noises. Immediately pulled over and had the car towed to Frankston Toyota. Now Frankston toyota are saying there has been a build up of sludge in the engine - the cause of they don't know and they want to replace the engine at a cost of $10000.

The reasons I can see for the sludge buildup is a lack of oil changes, but the car has always been serviced at Frankston Toyota in intervals as specified by the logbook ever since it was bought new.

I've done a bit of research and found that owners the USA who have the 1MZFE engine have reported similar engines and that Toyota eventually gave in and provided free replacement engines for those affected. Anyone know if a similar scheme operated here?

Search google for toyota sludge and you get hundreds of links.

Thanks,

Asela Fernando

Edited June 12, 2007 by Fox Mulder

[CHA54]

The Oil light in my dad's Avalon started comming on, when we start the car, but going off after about 2 seconds. We checked the manual and it said that this was normal.

Then 1 week later whilst driving it the oil light came on and then the engine started making very bad noises. Immediately pulled over and had the car towed to Frankston Toyota. Now Frankston toyota are saying there has been a build up of sludge in the engine - the cause of they don't know and they want to replace the engine at a cost of $10000.

The reasons I can see for the sludge buildup is a lack of oil changes, but the car has always been serviced at Frankston Toyota in intervals as specified by the logbook ever since it was bought new.

I've done a bit of research and found that owners the USA who have the 1MZFE engine have reported similar engines and that Toyota eventually gave in and provided free replacement engines for those affected. Anyone know if a similar scheme operated here?

Search google for toyota sludge and you get hundreds of links.

Thanks,

Asela Fernando

If you've got a full toyota service history, then you have a strong case for a warranty claim, or heavily discounted replacement.

[SuperDave]

10 grand is a bit rich. Push for a warrenty job and if your not happy with what the dealership says ring up Toyota HQ.

[Fox Mulder]

The technician at the service centre is still bewildered at how sludge ended up in the engine and suggested I call customer service. I did that and I told Toyota to talk to the service center and work out a solution and propose that to me. Should be getting a phone call anytime today.

[selyaT]

I had a similar buildup in my 1998 Camry Conquest V6 (same 1MZFE) just underneath the oil cap. I imagine it was because of few oil changes due to it being the family workhorse for years. It didn't cause any engine problems or bad noises, and each time we did an oil change it seemed to become less and less... It wasn't so much a sludge but more a solid build up of dry oil sediment. My Dad and all the mechanics at the workshp at our servo all just said "Yeah, Camrys do that"...

We have since sold the car to a family friend who is also a car person and he has had no trouble with it at all.

If you're replacing the engine remember TRD make a supercharger kit for the 1MZ for around 7000AUD

Keep us updated

[aussie_camry]

^

Yeah I think that is normal, mine has it, I think its because these engines have a shield between the valve cover itself and the camshafts... so oil goes on that which cools slower then rest of engine and gets abit solid. Thats not engine sludge as such, sludge is throughout the engine and is prity much a death sentence for it once some of it dislodges and goes somewhere it shouldnt be. See the attachment for a bad case of oil sludge.

As for original poster, I would think you have a reasonable case if you had the car properly serviced as its something that should not happen... the $10k replace also seems VERY excessive when a new engine is around $3k, $7k for instllation... I dont think so!

[CHA54]

is a brand new 1MZ crate motor only $3K from toyota?? I would have thought they would be around the 6-9K mark brand new.

Was looking at one of these motors pulled down at toyota the other day, oil pickup was chock a block full of gunk, which restricted the inlet of the oil pump, and starved the bearings of oil, spinning the bearings and ending up with rod knock.

That one was being rebuilt at a cost of $7K.

If the top end of your motor looks as bad as the one in the pic, imaging what the pickup etc in the sump look like.

[aussie_camry]

Oh brand new engine would be more, still $10k is excessive (I was talking more second hand / fully reconditioned engines are $3k.... which if you had to use your own money would be the most cost effective option!).

As for the pic, yeah I have pics of the pickup and its not a prity sight... the person in question actually manually cleaned out as much as they could and as far as I know its still running (this is from another forum).

[Fox Mulder]

Toyota Frankston are taking the stance that they are not at fault and that because for the 15,000km service the car was brought in at 20,000kms caused the engine sludging. I am hard pressed to see if that is the case why it took almost 101000kms to notice anything wrong with the engine.

In the US the court judgement saw it fit that for an engine to be adequately maintained oil be changed only every 12 months. But Frankston are trying to say that in the US they use different addiditives and whatnot, who cares mate it's the same engine!

Plus Customer service said that the dealer should've noticed sludge comming out of the engine in the other services whereas Frankston are saying you can't detect sludge from just draining the oil.

This is what you get for having your car serviced 100% at Toyota.

I have yet to hear what customer service are going to propose. From now on I think I'm only going to deal with customer service and not with Frankston Toyota.

It's been a week now and it's starting to become a bit of an annoyance having no car! Might check if the RACV provides a free rental car for comprehensive insurance.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Fox Mulder

[CHA54]

you can always take it further if Toyota deny you.

[Fox Mulder]

Now Toyota are offering $5,800 which I will accept we need a car and on the condition that I withold my right to take the Toyota Motor Corporation to court and sue for negligence in maintaining my engine.

Consumer Affairs have decided to help me out and are getting the VACC (Victorian Automotive consortium place thingy) to conduct an analysis on the engine. The VACC are saying that they think it's cos Toyota Frankston used the wrong oil or engine cleaner or didn't change the oil in the car, well well soon find out with the analysis done.

Consumer affairs will then take our case to Court against Toyota Frankston and Toyota Motor Corporation Australia.

[selyaT]

SH!T my buildup was about 1% of that pictured above... didn't know it could get quite so bad.

Frankston hey? That's the part of Melbourne that Sam Newman always ridicules on the AFL Footy Show... doesn't suprise me now!

Good luck Agent Mulder

[Fox Mulder]

The

The price is now $5,800. The car is getting a new engine at that price, but I'm still not happy and will take it up with the general manager of Toyota Frankston. On a side note they told me that they will be reusing the sensors from the old engine, like O2 sensors and various other sensors. Shouldn't they come with the new engine?

Might check with another dealer to see if that is the case.

[Fox Mulder]

Oh this just gets better and better. I spoke to them on the phone they said yep car is ready you can pickup the car and the old engine is yours for the taking.

Now I pickup the car tell them a mechanic is comming tomorrow to pickup the engine and they said that's fine and then I hand over the cheque. Then the service manager calls me in and explains to me that I actually can't have the old engine back. Because it's beign replaced under "warranty". I'm like what? If it was, then why am I paying something? It's being replaced at 50% under warranty. So then I demanded for 50% of the engine lol I don't understand, I paid for the engine when I bought the car new. Now I had to buy a new engine through them and have that fitted, why can't I have the old one back? Because they don't want someone else (VACC) doing an inspection on it.

When we agreed to the repair we were told we could have the engine back, now when they get their money they wont give it.

[Rolla Boy]

Engine sludge is normal when oil changes are not performed often enough or when the wrong oil is used...

We use Castrol Magnatec oil at work on all our VVTi engines, and for newer Camry's, Corolla's etc...

We've never had any issues with engines sludging when the services are carried out on time and according to specs...

Frankston said you missed the 15,000km service and brought the car for service at 20,000kms... Does this mean you let the car go 20,000kms without an oil change??? If so, that will cause sludge... It builds up over time...

Also, in regards to your last post, anything thats replaced under warranty must be kept by the dealer incase Toyota want to assess a dealers warranty claims... All parts must be kept for a certain amount of years, after that date, they must be thrown away and not to be re used...

It's normal for sensors, pumps, manifolds, etc, etc, etc to be swapped over from the old engine to the new one, we do it all the time... But don't worry, they would not refit damaged or worn parts and all seals and gaskets are replaced with brand new items...

You're lucky they accepted the warranty claim as your car is over the 100,000km warranty cut off point...

Hope this has been some sort of help for you...

[Fox Mulder]

But we were told we could have the engine, right up tot he point of handing over the money. It is one of the conditions of why i got the repair done by them. On the reciept it says nothing about warranty claims. Just that it is a goodwill gesture. And since i have paid for part of the new engine, why can't I get the old one back? At least 50% of it is still mine if they are playing the warranty card.

If the sludge was caused by the delayed service all those years ago, wouldn't it have been at it's peak then? Shouldn't subsequent oil changes help the problem, not make it worse?

Thanks for the info on reusing the parts.

[Rolla Boy]

I'm gunna presume the person who told you that you could have the engine back was a service advisor... Usually they don't care about Toyota Warranty policies and some just plain don't understand them...

Warranty replaced parts must be kept by the dealer regardless of how the warranty was arranged or regardless of what the item is... We have to keep light globes for years and years, some things seem stupid but it has to be done incase there is ever a dealer audit...

I understand your grief about wanting the engine back but yeah, nothing can be given back to you... From my experiences with warranty stuff, I'm presuming that a warranty approach was done on your engine and Toyota approved the cost of the engine and you were left with the labor bill or something along the lines of that...

In regards to the sludge itself, once is starts it gets worse as time goes by... I've had some cars come in with 40 - 50,000kms on the clock, never been serviced, pulled the rocker cover off and the head looks about 20 times worse than the picture that was posted above... Then the customer begs for warranty...

There are some engine flush additives out there to help keep engines clean but I've never seen any tests done regarding the products... I guess it wouldn't hurt to use them as they do contain cleaning additives and are designed to stop sludge and oil buildup... Maybe try a google search or ring around Nulon, Wynns, etc and try to gain as much information as you can...

Use those additives on your new engine and keep the services up to date on time everytime and you should be all good :) :) :) ...

[Fox Mulder]

The Dealer has now agreed to hand over the engine after 60 days after talking with Toyota.

I'm also wondering if they knew the car was brought into a service late, why did they not reccomend either - removing the rocker cover, or flush the engine then. Cos there's no point in spending all the money servicing the car from then on, if the engine is going to fail anyway no matter what you do.

[CHA54]

for $5800 I'd guess they gave you the motor at trade price and did the labour as "goodwill". $5800 is a hell of a lot of labour even at a dealership.

Edited July 5, 2007 by rollamods