C64 Crown Wheel / Final Drive failure

[MT]

Anyone know of a decent crown wheel for a 2ZZ C64 gearbox?

Broke the standard one after about 5/6 events, so replaced it with a C-One unit matched with C-One close ratio box and Kaaz lsd. First event, fine no problems, second event, 700mtrs into the first stage it broke and locked the gear box up (took us 4 hours to get it onto the trailer :()

Anyone know of companies that make them? Hopefully make them strong?

Cheers,

MT

[SuperDave]

I don't know how strong these are, but Ikeya make a dog box.

http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/en/product_notice...sion_parts.html

Need deep pockets for it though.

Tried PPG? The Yanks are starting to move to the E153 box, but the ratios don't really suit a NA 2zz.

[xoom]

unfortunetly mate nothing available off the shelf ...... trust me ..... i've searched.

u could go PPG ( www.ppgearbox.com.au ) however those boys are in SA so giving them a visit to discuss your application and go through details can be an issue ..... unless ur prepared to fly out ..... the other thing is u'd also need to get a sample setup out to them so they know what they are making.

or you could go with PAR ( www.par-engineering.com/default.aspx ) these guys are in minto just up the road from u in the good old ACT

in both cases u'd b looking at a very interesting lead time and possibly some interesting $'s ...... then again u'll never know if u never ask .....

i asked about getting a full custom setup in my car given my gearbox issues ...... thought before making this investment i'd try one last thing.

it also sounds like ur stocker held up better than the built setup ..... interesting ....... have you thought about getting a stocker put through the strengthening process ? shot peened, cryo treated etc etc ?

[Guni]

When they said the C series gearbox was weak, I didn't realize it was THAT weak....

Hmmm .... <_<

Bill, what gearbox issues are you experiencing? You took it apart a fair few times??

[MT]

Thanks SuperDave and SuperBill.

That dog box looks interesting Dave, but we were really happy with the ratio's of the box we had, the car went brilliantly with it.

Thinking about sending the standard one and the short ratio final drive to Modena and seeing what they can come up with - I think its probably the best bet. But still, probably big $$

Would get the standard one strengthened further, but the ratio's arent right with the close ratio box. The c-one final drive made it beautiful.

Anyway, thanks guys.

[MT]

When they said the C series gearbox was weak, I didn't realize it was THAT weak....

Hmmm .... <_<

Bill, what gearbox issues are you experiencing? You took it apart a fair few times??

They arent that weak, this car is pushing out a fair bit of power, and it takes a fair few hits on the rough road in Canberra.

Bill's putting out way too much power into his box and it keeps munching it. Although not exactly sure what fails first in his case...

[MT]

Had a look at the Ikeya, it looks like a top unit, the sequential part is awesome, but the ratio's are all wrong for us. Would be perfect in a track car though.

Nice find SD

Any other ideas anyone?

[the_random_hero]

Quaife do anything? Just did a little browse, found a few dead ends...

EDIT: Toyota EA series gearboxes might be right up your alley, now I think of it. I'm trying to find some more information as we speak.

Edited November 24, 2009 by the_random_hero

[xoom]

When they said the C series gearbox was weak, I didn't realize it was THAT weak....

Hmmm .... <_<

Bill, what gearbox issues are you experiencing? You took it apart a fair few times??

They arent that weak, this car is pushing out a fair bit of power, and it takes a fair few hits on the rough road in Canberra.

Bill's putting out way too much power into his box and it keeps munching it. Although not exactly sure what fails first in his case...

the box itself isnt weak guni ..... if u treat it right then it will be fine ..... my box lasted approx 6 yrs with no probs - 4yrs n/a and 2 yrs forced ..... it saw the 1/4 atleast 30 times n/a and 10 times forced and when it was forced i was running 225 drag radials so there is some added stress ;) ...... did a crap load of mountain runs ..... so i have put it through its paces ..... but i didnt abuse it ..... there is a difference between driving hard and full all out abuse .... hard launching off the lights and chirping 2nds everywhere ofcourse the thing isnt gonna last under that abuse ..... i dont think any gearbox will .....

as MT stated im simply putting out too much power ...... and in the end 3rd gear gave up ...... all other gears are still in pretty good nick except being that 3rd is the gear where i get my power to the ground it was copping the biggest hiding ....... and in the end it lost half its teeth simply putting along ...... lol

SD ..... mate that box is worth over $15k ...... u might as well talk to PPG or PAR at that price and support aussie built ;)

[Guni]

Cheers for that guys.

Was speaking to a transmission specialist in Dandenong about rebuilding my gearbox and having experience with Honda and Toyota, he claims it isn't strong enough to track/drag and suggest I reconsider spending that money.

Thanks for the info though. Helps plenty.

:lol: :lol:

[SuperDave]

he claims it isn't strong enough to track/drag and suggest I reconsider spending that money.

There's a big difference between stress caused by drag racing and by track racing. Don't launch it or slam it into second gear and it'll probably last long enough.

[51EKA]

When they said the C series gearbox was weak, I didn't realize it was THAT weak....

Hmmm .... <_<

Bill, what gearbox issues are you experiencing? You took it apart a fair few times??

They arent that weak, this car is pushing out a fair bit of power, and it takes a fair few hits on the rough road in Canberra.

Bill's putting out way too much power into his box and it keeps munching it. Although not exactly sure what fails first in his case...

the box itself isnt weak guni ..... if u treat it right then it will be fine ..... my box lasted approx 6 yrs with no probs - 4yrs n/a and 2 yrs forced ..... it saw the 1/4 atleast 30 times n/a and 10 times forced and when it was forced i was running 225 drag radials so there is some added stress ;) ...... did a crap load of mountain runs ..... so i have put it through its paces ..... but i didnt abuse it ..... there is a difference between driving hard and full all out abuse .... hard launching off the lights and chirping 2nds everywhere ofcourse the thing isnt gonna last under that abuse ..... i dont think any gearbox will .....

as MT stated im simply putting out too much power ...... and in the end 3rd gear gave up ...... all other gears are still in pretty good nick except being that 3rd is the gear where i get my power to the ground it was copping the biggest hiding ....... and in the end it lost half its teeth simply putting along ...... lol

SD ..... mate that box is worth over $15k ...... u might as well talk to PPG or PAR at that price and support aussie built ;)

x2...

The box isn't that weak. I'm on the same boat as Bill. I've had my car since 2003, and I regularly take it down the 1/4 and do mountain runs once sometimes twice a week. Plus regular abuse on the streets back when street scene was big. And I'm still on my first box, although it's now on it's last legs (mostly because I learnt how to race a manual properly in this car).

I think it all comes down to what you do to it. Wheel hop, smashing gears, "bad" clutch, slicks, solid engine mounts, bad oil etc all help send the box into retirement sooner.

[MT]

Yep, Bill and 51EKA (sorry mate not sure of your real name) are right, abuse is the killer with the C series boxes.

I'm in no way saying that the C-One product is inferior - i'm sure it would be fine on a track car, unless you start with both wheels spinning like crazy.

Our car suffers some abuse simply from the conditions, some dirt roads are beautiful and smooth, others are goat tracks, its just what rallying is about. It just so happened that the box broke on a steep hill, that had a bump which dropped off before the road began rising again... the car went over the bump, front wheels lifted a little and therefore spun, and when they landed again the force just broke the box. Unfortunate but thats what happens.

I think the crown wheel is going off to Modena now, decision made. Cheers guys.

[SuperDave]

For Bill and Micky

MWR Gearbox options

Shame nothing there for only a crown wheel up[grade.

[terryo]

I've built quite a few 5 & 6 speed version of boxes including a few of them used in circuit race cars here and overseas.

For race use, I get the gears cryo treated and basically "blue-print" the box to make sure all the gear meshes are correct and syncros work properly

In stock form, have seen plenty of inner axle and syncro hub failures and a few individual gears fail. I have never seen crown wheel failure

The open centered stock diffs commonly fail in the hands of idiots who insist on doing 1-wheel burn-outs, but once a good plate type LSD is fitted, this problem mostly goes away.

I must agree that all gear sizes are marginal for big HP, but we now have two of them running behind 3SGTE's, so they are not that shabby. Having said that, we use special oils, treat them "nicely", and definitely no extended burn outs in low gears.

The way they are treated is the big isssue. I can imagine they wont like drag racing or extreme shock loads from rallying.

Any of those gear companies can produce lovely stuff (i've used all of their products), but you will pay big $ for any of it.

Without changing the box design, there is very little you can do to dramatically increase their torque capacity, as you are limited by gear and bearing diameters

[SuperDave]

Having said that, we use special oils

It's still going good for me

But then again my power level is pretty close to stock :P

[Guni]

Having said that, we use special oils

What's so special about the oils?

[Guni]

For Bill and Micky

MWR Gearbox options

Shame nothing there for only a crown wheel up[grade.

The guys at MWR definitely cook up something great IMO.

[SuperDave]

The guys at MWR definitely cook up something great IMO.

They also have a dry sump and intake manifold in the works ;)

[and1]

The guys at MWR definitely cook up something great IMO.

They also have a dry sump and intake manifold in the works ;)

Ooo.. Is the intake manifold going to yield similar gains to the DD intake manifold I wonder

[Guni]

Quaife is working on something themselves it seems ..... let's hope its not something MWR already or IS going to be making.

Alternatives ......

:lol: :lol:

[MT]

MWR

Bingo, thats pretty perfect

[terryo]

what final drive ratio do you want??? at my work we have got 2 other people asking about alternatives, and we have a 'friendly" gear maker, so I might be able to help after all.