VVti -> VVtLi

[Mintos]

Ok guys, here is a new one for you...

Is there anyone who thinks it is possible to convert a 1zzfe engine into a LIFT capable beast through internal work? From what i have read, there is not all that much difference between the 1zz and 2zz engines...they are both built from the same block and have alot of the same parts, until we reach things like the the cams, intake manifold, injectors - however with proper modification/replacement of these parts that differ these two engines, as well as a proper ECU replacement to accommodate the VVtLi...can a 1zz LIFT ? :P

I personally think it is possible and if one was adventerous, it would be a very interesting path to explore, but there are also probably many of you out there who think i am a complete twit (probably stivo drivers). So to cover myself i am going to be clear that - I PERSONALLY HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING ANY SUCH MODIFICATION MY CAR.

I just thought it was an interesting prospect that could possibly have some awesome/disastrous results.

Also if anyone has a theory on how they think it can be done, please include costs. Good test to see how well you stivo people know the ins and outs of your engine. So dont be shy people, let the abuse fly :D

[Blackzze]

Too tempting to pass up the offer: YOU ARE CRAZY!!

Although anything is possible, the 2zz development makes it an (almost) entirley different engine!

The block material is different for a start, different bore and stroke etc,

BUT, for a thorugh understanding of the 2ZZGE engine, here is the white paper:

www.m-msport.com.au/Downloads/2zzGE%20Engine.pdf

As you can see, there is a big diff. Better to look out for a wrecked sportivo and perhaps do a transplant, or look at an imported jap engine, but you better know some good mechanics/electronics guys to get it to 100%, plus you may need a new gearbox, I'm not sure if the 5 and 6 speed are directly interchangable..... anyone else help on this?

[Mintos]

Too tempting to pass up the offer: YOU ARE CRAZY!!

Although anything is possible, the 2zz development makes it an (almost) entirley different engine!

The block material is different for a start, different bore and stroke etc,

BUT, for a thorugh understanding of the 2ZZGE engine, here is the white paper:

            www.m-msport.com.au/Downloads/2zzGE%20Engine.pdf

As you can see, there is a big diff. Better to look out for a wrecked sportivo and perhaps do a transplant, or look at an imported jap engine, but you better know some good mechanics/electronics guys to get it to 100%, plus you may need a new gearbox, I'm not sure if the 5 and 6 speed are directly interchangable..... anyone else help on this?

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ok...our source documents differ greatly in their definitions of facts But yeah you kind of didnt take note of:

I PERSONALLY HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING ANY SUCH MODIFICATION MY CAR.

I dont want to turn my car into a sportivo, i respect both cars, i was just opting for something a little different to encourage some healthy debate :)

[oz_viking]

The C series gearboxes are interchangeable for all I know, having been used for many a Corolla model.

The main requirement for engine work would be the 2ZZ head, with the speccy cams, valves and springs needed to rev beyond 6K. I'm not sure the standard engine would cope with the 12:1 CR without mods.

There are bottom end differences also - the windage tray for one thing, although this is just a nice bonus that keeps the oil where you want it and not pushing up the sides of the block (how many lateral G's do they think Sportivo owners are pulling, anyhow?).

[Blackzze]

Hey Mintos, I know you only said 'what are the possibilities'....... And I meant to say I think you would be crazy to TRY it. That said, I also noted that ANYTHING is possible. I have no doubt it could be done, but at what overall cost?? IMO, Cheaper to turbo a 1ZZGE and have more REAL DRIVEABILITY than me!

OZ- useless fact for the day, I got over 0.8g's in my stock magna 3.5 '02 model.... with the aid of the handbrake

The only reason I know this is because in the magna ralliart they had to put an extra baffle in the fuel tank to stop the mysterious fuel cutout at 0.8G's+

[sw20r]

you will mostlikely need and aftermarket ecu as these engines have an immobiliser system setup to the ignition barrel so i've heard if you were todo a complete swap.

[shaohaok]

The C series gearboxes are interchangeable for all I know, having been used for many a Corolla model.

The main requirement for engine work would be the 2ZZ head, with the speccy cams, valves and springs needed to rev beyond 6K.  I'm not sure the standard engine would cope with the 12:1 CR without mods.

There are bottom end differences also - the windage tray for one thing, although this is just a nice bonus that keeps the oil where you want it and not pushing up the sides of the block (how many lateral G's do they think Sportivo owners are pulling, anyhow?).

←

11.5:1 :)

[shaohaok]

Ok guys, here is a new one for you...

Is there anyone who thinks it is possible to convert a 1zzfe engine into a LIFT capable beast through internal work? From what i have read, there is not all that much difference between the 1zz and 2zz engines...they are both built from the same block and have alot of the same parts, until we reach things like the the cams, intake manifold, injectors - however with proper modification/replacement of these parts that differ these two engines, as well as a proper ECU replacement to accommodate the VVtLi...can a 1zz LIFT ? :P

I personally think it is possible and if one was adventerous, it would be a very interesting path to explore, but there are also probably many of you out there who think i am a complete twit (probably stivo drivers). So to cover myself i am going to be clear that - I PERSONALLY HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING ANY SUCH MODIFICATION MY CAR.

I just thought it was an interesting prospect that could possibly have some awesome/disastrous results.

Also if anyone has a theory on how they think it can be done, please include costs. Good test to see how well you stivo people know the ins and outs of your engine. So dont be shy people, let the abuse fly  :D

←

like Blackzze said, u should have a read of this SAE paper. 2zz is a completely different animal to the 1zz it is based off.

2ZZ_GE.pdf

[CAP]

No it can't be done.

Firstly the 1zz has a longer stroke and smaller bore, meaning if you get this block to rev out to 8,000rpm, the piston velocity is too much for the crank to bare. The shorter stroke of the 2zz allows it to rev higher.

The 2zz block also has additional oil jets for better lubrication and cooling at high revs.

Lastly fitting a 2zz head to a 1zz block, it doesn't quite line up 100% in a similar fashion to trying to fitting a 4age head to a 4afe block, it was never designed to be interchangeable.

Similar engines but still very different.

[Mintos]

No it can't be done.

Firstly the 1zz has a longer stroke and smaller bore, meaning if you get this block to rev out to 8,000rpm, the piston velocity is too much for the crank to bare.  The shorter stroke of the 2zz allows it to rev higher.

The 2zz block also has additional oil jets for better lubrication and cooling at high revs.

Lastly fitting a 2zz head to a 1zz block, it doesn't quite line up 100% in a similar fashion to trying to fitting a 4age head to a 4afe block, it was never designed to be interchangeable.

Similar engines but still very different.

←

Nothing a skilled welder cant fix :P

But the document posted by blackzze (also supposedly directly from toyota <_< ) and the ones i have read (similar development documents , supposedly straight from toyota) say completely different things

Maybe it cant be done unless its a full chop shop job...but that is not the attitude that gets us anywhere - some bending of the 2zz head, a heavy duty replacement of the 1zz stroke, forged pistons that can run 11.5:1 compression...and we are almost looking good to go from what you guys have indicated.

[Northy]

just buy a new 2zz-ge it would be cheaper.... i know thats not the "point" but its the cheapest solution to the "problem"

[CAP]

Well of co**** if it's a money's no object project, then yes it would be possible, but otherwise it wouldn't be viable and just problematic.

It would bring better results to simply stroke the 2zz-ge with a custom crank but again you would need to bring the rev limiter down to say 7800rpm, otherwise it wont last.

But again as power is the result of rev's x torque, bringing the limiter down means the gain from the elongated stroke won't be worthwhile.

[shaohaok]

huh?!

wat's the fuss all about? isn't it just the sticker underneath the side indicators?

[CAP]

huh?! 

wat's the fuss all about? isn't it just the sticker underneath the side indicators?

←

Really ?

Cool I'll pick up a set right now and pick up 40kw at the fly ! :D

[Mintos]

Well of co**** if it's a money's no object project, then yes it would be possible, but otherwise it wouldn't be viable and just problematic. 

It would bring better results to simply stroke the 2zz-ge with a custom crank but again you would need to bring the rev limiter down to say 7800rpm, otherwise it wont last.

But again as power is the result of rev's x torque, bringing the limiter down means the gain from the elongated stroke won't be worthwhile.

←

hmmm yes i definitely agree, the costs associated with such a conversion would be wasted, so hmmm, lets look at this from a different perspective...

Rather than trying to get the horses out of a 1zz to that of a 2zz, what can be done to get the low and mid torque out of a 2zz to be equal (preferably greater) than a 1zz...?

Someone in Australia should have surely by now done some cam work to a stivo - it would really pay off in that motor. Anyone seen that clip a while back of that Celica in the US that got some 150kw atw with a Power FC and cam work (as well as the other standard mods) - it revved to some 9k and did a quater in 13.8 or something.

Come on Northy, i know you are keen, only 2-3k worth of work and you can break the 14 sec barrier - do it, come on, do it, you are already getting the Apexera NOW WORK THOSE CAMS!

[SILVABULLIT]

You start talking big dollars for internal work. Cams would set you back somewhere in the vicinity of about 1000-1500 never mind the cost of fitting/tuning. the problem with this sort of engine is it's a compromise of low end torque sacrificing some peak power or vice versa. The typical traits of a multivalve engine. Plus you've got the added complexities of getting the cam grind right to work with the VVTL-i.

Not saying that it can't be done but not sure that too many of us have that kind of dough to through around. :D

[oz_viking]

The only reason I know this is because in the magna ralliart they had to put an extra baffle in the fuel tank to stop the mysterious fuel cutout at 0.8G's+ 

←

That reminds me - somewhere I have a video I took of a Mitsubishi employee sponsored by his company with a free Ralliart Magna fanging around on a motorkhana track. For a big car it's very agile...

[oz_viking]

No it can't be done.

Firstly the 1zz has a longer stroke and smaller bore, meaning if you get this block to rev out to 8,000rpm, the piston velocity is too much for the crank to bare.  The shorter stroke of the 2zz allows it to rev higher.

The 2zz block also has additional oil jets for better lubrication and cooling at high revs.

Lastly fitting a 2zz head to a 1zz block, it doesn't quite line up 100% in a similar fashion to trying to fitting a 4age head to a 4afe block, it was never designed to be interchangeable.

Similar engines but still very different.

←

I thought the 3ZZ stroker kit was the 1zz crank fitted to our engine...?

[Northy]

Well of co**** if it's a money's no object project, then yes it would be possible, but otherwise it wouldn't be viable and just problematic. 

It would bring better results to simply stroke the 2zz-ge with a custom crank but again you would need to bring the rev limiter down to say 7800rpm, otherwise it wont last.

But again as power is the result of rev's x torque, bringing the limiter down means the gain from the elongated stroke won't be worthwhile.

←

hmmm yes i definitely agree, the costs associated with such a conversion would be wasted, so hmmm, lets look at this from a different perspective...

Rather than trying to get the horses out of a 1zz to that of a 2zz, what can be done to get the low and mid torque out of a 2zz to be equal (preferably greater) than a 1zz...?

Someone in Australia should have surely by now done some cam work to a stivo - it would really pay off in that motor. Anyone seen that clip a while back of that Celica in the US that got some 150kw atw with a Power FC and cam work (as well as the other standard mods) - it revved to some 9k and did a quater in 13.8 or something.

Come on Northy, i know you are keen, only 2-3k worth of work and you can break the 14 sec barrier - do it, come on, do it, you are already getting the Apexera NOW WORK THOSE CAMS!

←

you have sparked my interest here mate, any more info on the celica in question?

[CAP]

Isn't that the one that Ilivfor6 (Stewie) posted a while back. The link should still be here on the forum somewhere.

[oz_viking]

That reminds me - somewhere I have a video I took of a Mitsubishi employee sponsored by his company with a free Ralliart Magna fanging around on a motorkhana track.  For a big car it's very agile...

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I found the video, someone want to host it?

[Mintos]

you have sparked my interest here mate, any more info on the celica in question?

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Sorry Northy, havnt been watching this thread, missed this post of yours. The Celica in question...

The only info i have of this celica is what is shown in a 5 minute video clip which i THINK i got from this forum, but it may have been from some US forums, i cant recall. To find out exactly what this car had done to it, you would likely have to chase up some American forums.

The vid indicates that the car was an 01 GTS and had: Injen CAI, Trial header, Custom exhaust, Fidanza Flywheel, ACT clutch, as well as your Power FC. I dont know how these mods allowed the car to rev to 9k rpm with seemingly good stability but the top output on the dyno was 144.6kw atw with 184.3 nm of torque.

If anyone has a method to upload the file or whatever, let me know and you can see for yourself :) , it is 28mb.

[MR22ZZ]

You mean this one??? :P :P :P

Click Me

found in this thread!!!!

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/inde...owtopic=983&hl=

[ancullen]

I thought the 3ZZ stroker kit was the 1zz crank fitted to our engine...?

←

The stroker kit available for the 2ZZ-GE is simply a 1ZZ crank. And the big bore kit available for the 1ZZ-FE simply uses 2ZZ-GE pistons and sleeves. See here for details.

And just to be picky, a 2ZZ-GE stroker would not be a 3ZZ-GE, it would be a 5ZZ-GE as Toyota already make a 3ZZ-FE and 4ZZ-FE (1.4L and 1.6L capacities respectively) for use in European market Corollas where the 1ZZ-FE is not offered.