Brought A Lemon Some Advice Needed. ???

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Ok I had it confirimed today that out Toyota Avalon that we brought just 2 weeks ago from Frankston Toyota Melbourne was involved in an accident.

It's had a new skin put on the back quarter panel and not properly sealed theres a water puddle in the boot in that area.

It's possible all the back was panel damaged as well.

The roof near the back window has a rough paint surface.

It would seem the front was also damaged as there are signs of a cover up.

None of this was possible to pick up while it was in the caryard.

I have contacted Frankston Toyota Used car manager but he has a non aprochable attutede that I picked up over the phone and was the same when looking at the car discussing a price. I have also made sure the owner of the dealership is aware of the issue but he thinks it ain't that bad.

Basicly when you go to a big dealership like this you don't expect to be buying a lemon that cost you $16,000

What advice can you guys give me when I have to go see them on Tuesday.

[theDefiant1]

Mention the fact that the automotive ombudsman would be interested in this case.

All dealers, by law, have to disclose the known history of the car prior to sale. If they knew about the accident, the damage and subsequent repair, they should have presented you with a written/typed disclaimer. This allows them to cover their own behinds if you decide to claim warrantee issues.

I believe without this documentation, they have, in essence, misled and lied to you.

Read through the sales documentation that they gave you, and look for anything that relates to the prior condition of the car (eg, "This car has not knownly been involved in an accident OR the buyer has been informed of such said damage to the vehicle" etc etc). See what it says.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Mention the fact that the automotive ombudsman would be interested in this case.

All dealers, by law, have to disclose the known history of the car prior to sale. If they knew about the accident, the damage and subsequent repair, they should have presented you with a written/typed disclaimer. This allows them to cover their own behinds if you decide to claim warrantee issues.

I believe without this documentation, they have, in essence, misled and lied to you.

Read through the sales documentation that they gave you, and look for anything that relates to the prior condition of the car (eg, "This car has not knownly been involved in an accident OR the buyer has been informed of such said damage to the vehicle" etc etc). See what it says.

I have looked at the documentation that we got does not mention this anywhere and all they have on there cars is a price tag on the rearview mirrors some did have that tag on the window but there never filled out properly.

I know the last owners were Budget rent a car but it was not used for rental only used by managment.

Should I contact the Automotive Ombudsman first thing on Monday before I go see Frankston Toyota on Tuesday.

So far there been great with other things on the car that they are fixing and on Tuesday it's going there to get a gear box service wheel balance and alignment for free and a 60,000K serivce for only $200 and the inside rear plastic quater panel to be replaced as it's warped it poped off and can't get it to stay on the Toyota dealership where I live said the clips are busted and it would be a waste just to put new clips on as the panel is warped.

[theDefiant1]

I would certainly get advice from the ombudsman - there you cannot go wrong.

I know you bought the car because you liked it, so if Toyota are willing to fix any issues for you, then take it (as I imagine getting your money back will be much harder). It may also be worth your while to get the car assessed by an independent party (RACV etc) just to make sure all is okay.

But really, having a leaky booty is not the done thing these days!

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

I would certainly get advice from the ombudsman - there you cannot go wrong.

I know you bought the car because you liked it, so if Toyota are willing to fix any issues for you, then take it (as I imagine getting your money back will be much harder). It may also be worth your while to get the car assessed by an independent party (RACV etc) just to make sure all is okay.

But really, having a leaky booty is not the done thing these days!

I can't find anything on the web for Automotive Ombudsman in Victoria but I have found Consumer Affairs Motor.

Nothing was disclosed to us that the car was damaged we stumbled onto it.

If anything the car drives great it's wisper quite if they offer to have the panel work redone then it will be ok with me as long as the paint work is top notch at least I know 100% that the k's are not fake I have been in contact with the fleet manager at Budget rent a car in Sydney and he looked up the service history and gave me what was already in the book and they car was sold off that month which was December last year 2006 but i am still waiting for his partner who would know if they had it repaired for damage.

[crinkles]

I am sorry to hear about your situation.

I was worried something similar would happen to us, so I had the RACWA do a master check on the car for $170. (which I am getting a refund for as I am financing through them). They didn't find anything wrong with it excpet a very small tear in the door upholstery, you really had to look for it to notice it.

I am convinced that car dealers are the lowest of the low. I have strong words for them but I won't say them here. words like scum come to mind? every single word, even "the" and "a" coming from their mouths you just can't trust.

We bought a Camry 2005 from a dealer here in Perth. I won't name him. Their service was terrible. I'd go so far as to say pathetic. I don't know how Toyota Australia can allow these dealerships to be run like this and their products to be flogged by dealers looking to screw toyota's customers.

It took ages to get the most basic paperwork sorted with this dealer (I mean, this is supposed to be their JOB - selling cars???) and all through the deal I had the feeling they were shafting me at every turn. They kept on to the car as long as possible, dragging paperwork out, and in my mind that only means one thing - they were trying to hide something quick.

above all i got my rego and stamp duty papers from the dealer a day after i was supposed to lodge them with licensing.. what do you know... i might need to pay a $100 infringement because i lodged them late. thanks, mr dealer.

I find it appaling that dealers virtually prey on people with a product everyone needs. I dont see why buying a car needs to be such a hassle from trying to avoid being shafted from start to finish.

just my 2 cents. I wish i could walk to Altona and buy a car straight off the factory floor. cut the middleman out. Toyota should look into that.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

We got the same thing they kept moving us from one desk to another and I had to put my foot down and say hey not playing this musicl desk thing you got going get what you need and come back here. I had my parents with me there in there golden years and dad is bad off with his walking and I thought they were being very inconsiderate towards them and then trying to make a deal with them but my parents kept telling them hey don't talk to us to talk to my son were just chipping in to get the best car we can get.

The money in this car was our saving combined pus selling our own cars to get one really good car that would last us years.

I'm hoping things will work out on Tuesday as so far they have been great they have been doing what I would expect them to do so far.

[Azza]

I feel for your situation mate, I hate nothing more than being on the butt-end of a problem, and believe me, I usually get my way (Thanks BigPond for yet another credit on my Broadband account lol )

Firstly, yes, the dealership needs to disclose known history of the vehicle. The one thing you need to prove though, is that they actually knew of the accident. This can at times be near impossible and difficult, but has to be done because you can not be accusing them of misleading and deceptive conduct if they have not mislead you.

TO be honest, their appraisers, detailers and workshop guys sholuld have picked this up, however a well covered accident can be difficult to pick up. Often they rely on what information they are given when they trade the vehicle from the previous owner or collect it from the wholesalers.

My suggestion to having this issue resolved, is firstly to pop on down to a decent panel beater in your area. This may cast you a small fee but worth it in the long run if you succeed. Have the panel beater write a report on the vehicle identifying the current issues with the vehicle that need to be repaired, as well as identifying the problems that he is able to identify as damage that has previously been repaired.

Secondly, have this report endoresed by an Assessor at your insurance company. They may choose to write their own or just a statement to the effect that they support the panel beater.

Before then involving an independant umpire, give the dealership an opportunity (in writing) to correct the fault. The ACCC or any other independant body will not really support you until you have given them an opportunity to correct the fault. The best way to approach the dealership then is either by writing them a letter and in a rational method, lay out the story identifying the purchase, story to date, and ensure that you ask them in a rational manner, what outcome you want. Remember at this stage you should not be too demanding or rude. You need to then advise them exactly what resolution you are looking for, whether it be a replacement vehicle or for them to repair the one you have. Also give them a timeframe that you want them to respond to your complaint and a timeframe that you want them to have the issue resolved. An example of this letter could be:

To Whom It May Concern:

I am writing to you in relation to a matter I have previously brought to your attention regarding the Toyota Avalon we purchased from you on xx/xx/2007.

Upon initial inspection and test drive of the vehicle, I had noticed nothing inherantly wrong with the vehicle, and no issues that would directly affect my decision to purchase the car.

Upon delivery of the car, and subsequent use, problems and issues were noticed. These issues include:

• Problem A
  
• Problem B
  
• Problem C
  

I have since now had it confirmed that the car has been involved in a motor vehicle accident, and that the damage sustained in this accident is the cause of the subsequent issues. I have included a report from [PERSON A] which identifies the issues concerned.

I initially approached the Used Car Manager at your dealership to discuss these matters, however his attitude was rude and unwelcoming and essentially did not want to accept that there could be any issues.

The resolution I am looking for includes either:

• Replacement of the vehicle to the value of the purchase price paid for the car, or
  
• Repair of all the identified faults with the vehicle at your cost to a standard acceptable to my insurance company
  

In addition to one of the above options, I also would like an official apology in writing from your dealership that identifies that you accept that there is indeed an issue that should have been addressed when I first made contact with your dealership.

I look forward to hearing from you within 14 days of this letter identifying which option you are opting to take. Once identified, I am then requesting that this matter be settled within 28 days of this decision.

My contact details are enclosed, and I look forward to your response.

Kind Regards

Mr AussieToyotaAvalon

When you send this letter, send it by Registered Post or Fax so you have a confirmation that it was recieved on their end. Should you not recieve a response,or you do but it is not satisfactory, then I would be putting a call in to the Department of Fair Trading in Victoria, and advise them of where your at.

Good luck and be sure to let us know how it all goes...

Cheers

Aaron

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Azza thanks for all that info just what I needed I'll get the ball rolling on Monday I'll also let my insurance compnay know of what is happening and there advice I'm with RACV.

I have copied your sample letter to type out properly later on in the week when I have all the info and if I am not satisfied with the result from Frankston Toyota on Tuesday but I will let them know it will be inspected and what the full damage repair really was etc etc.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Ok I got off the phone with RACV and they don't give a stuff about it they just told me it won't affect my insurance policy any thing else I need to go see a lawyers about etc. Also they told me I should have booked it in for an inspection with RACV which I told them I tried to do but you were fully booked for 3 weeks so RACV let me down there. So I guess I'll find a RACV nominated repairer and get them to look over the car on Monday and tell me what they can see has been repaired for damage and take a copy of that with me on Tuesday.

[MT]

why didnt you do a REVS check?

All cars who have been in an accident that involved an insurance company are listed on REVS after 2004.

still, bad luck to hear what happened. Azza's letter seems like the best idea i guess

[theDefiant1]

Further to what Azza said, make sure you get everything in writing. Everthing.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

why didnt you do a REVS check?

All cars who have been in an accident that involved an insurance company are listed on REVS after 2004.

still, bad luck to hear what happened. Azza's letter seems like the best idea i guess

REVS check I have not heard of something like that nor do I know what REVS means ??

I did do a title check and finance check that was clear.

[MT]

REVS is the registrar of encumbered vehicles.

Government list of all cars (by VIN number) that are stolen, statutory write off's, under finance, and now any vehicle that has been damaged.

[Azza]

I always thought that Registered Motor Vehicle Dealers were supposed to include the REVS check in the Bill Of Sale.... They used to here in Queensland.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

I got a call back from Budget in Sydney and they have now confirmed that the car has been in 2 major accidents but can't tell me how bad aech one was.

Also Blood Toyota in Geelong has looked at the car and can confirm that there have been 2 major repairs one the front and one in the rear and they don't understand why a Toyota yard was selling it for as they don't sell cars like these in there yards.

So I'll have some ammo to take with tomorrow and I have one of the owners of the dealership to meet with.

I'll be happy with another Toyota Avalon of the same year and K's as I am now hooked on these cars.

[saintly]

I got a call back from Budget in Sydney and they have now confirmed that the car has been in 2 major accidents but can't tell me how bad aech one was.

Also Blood Toyota in Geelong has looked at the car and can confirm that there have been 2 major repairs one the front and one in the rear and they don't understand why a Toyota yard was selling it for as they don't sell cars like these in there yards.

So I'll have some ammo to take with tomorrow and I have one of the owners of the dealership to meet with.

I'll be happy with another Toyota Avalon of the same year and K's as I am now hooked on these cars.

maybe they were being ignorant

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Ok after being in Melbourne for most of all day and very long talk with the owner of Frankston Toyota the car was sent of to RACV to be inspected funny how they can get RACV to check a car within a few hours but for me It was going to take a few weeks. well Turns out it isn't as bad as we thought it was yes it has been in 2 incidents etc the front struts have to be fully replaced free of charge some panels will be replaced with new panels a 60,000 full service will be done with free parts and they will be going over the whole car looking for other things that need to be replaced so I don't need to come up to Frankston again etc etc etc.

Down side I am without the car till the end of the week so they ware good enough to give me a courtsy car till I can pick the car back up and that I am satisfied with the work.

[Trufflepig]

...Down side I am without the car till the end of the week so they ware good enough to give me a courtsy car till I can pick the car back up and that I am satisfied with the work.

Seems like a fairly reasonable outcome to me. Used car dealers know ALL the angles and will argue that black is white when it suits them. Here's my (unhappy) story.

A previous vehicle, lets say it was a Holden, was purchased under the often repeated criteria of "pedigree" and "owner history". This was mentioned every time I spoke to the salesperson, whom I thought I could trust (Mistake #1, Lesson #1, trust should never be a factor in used car deals). I had travelled the northern half of Adelaide trying to find someone who impressed me (ie wouldnt step over his burning grandmother to close a deal) and ended up at a country dealership. After looking at a few cars and finding one problem or another, they offered me what seemed at the time a vehicle that fitted all the criteria and looked great.

Until I sat in the car, at least. The steering wheel was wrong, as was the radio/cd player. Weird. Of course they offered to swap said units from other cars..."No worries Sir, we can fix that". Umm, hmmm, well, ok I guess - by then the heart was working far better than the brain. (Mistake #2. Lesson #2, if there's something fishy in Denmark, then WALK AWAY)

Test drive went well, aside from an annoying sound from the engine bay. "Yep, we'll fix that under factory warranty sir" So far so good. On second visit to dealership for the warranty repairs, the cheery service manager informd my wife (I was at work) that "You'll have to pay for that repair, and it looks like you should have payed for the last one as well", as he belted a stake through the heart of customer service. "No way, its under factory warranty" said the good wife. "No it isnt, Holden (lets say) has cancelled it" said the bad service manager.

Long story short, the vehicle had been re-built from the firewall forward after a head on accident. I was certain that independant bodies (such as lawyers, ombudsmen etc) would side with me, even Holden (lets say) Customer Service when they find out what dealers are doing to the corporate reputation (Mistake #3. Lesson #3 if no laws are broken, you're on your own mate).

A protracted letter campaign ensued. I insisted that the vehicle be swapped for an equivalent. "Very hard to find an equivalent sir". "well are you trying or not?" "Oh yes very hard sir". Eventually Mr Used Car Manager fronted up at our residence with a "replacement" vehicle. "Shall we go for a drive sir?" "Im not going near it till I know what the deal is". So he sat at our kitchen table, gave the company line, and asked for our car plus another $6000 for the replacement.

What galled me the most is that he kept saying it was a fair deal, and couldnt understand my frustration and reluctance to fork another $6k over to the dealership for essentially the same car. The message was loud and clear "We dont want you sir, now or ever, to come back here"

Hence the order for a new ZR6

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Well I did lay it down on the table if that car was very badly damaged and covered up then I would be demanding another Avalon up said the same thing not sure about that be very hard to find another one and I pointed out with some print outs from the main Toyota website a few Avalons from other Toyota yards. Either that repair all that needs to be done to make me and RACV happy so it was all layed down on the table at the end of the day and I was very happy with it and ahppy that the damage was not as server as we had thought as Budget when they list things in there computers make even the littles thing out as MAJOR not the case here. I also said that I am giving them the chance to rectify the issues first before I have to take it any further were it could get ugly for both party's like bad publicity etc.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Here are the pics from the web site of it in the showroom,

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

And these are pics on the day we left a deposit,

[Azza]

AussieToyotaAvalon: Good work mate, good to see that you got an outcome in your favour....

to Frankston Toyota as well for coming to the party.....

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

AussieToyotaAvalon: Good work mate, good to see that you got an outcome in your favour....

to Frankston Toyota as well for coming to the party.....

Too early yet to say I haven't inspected the car yet after the repairs that will be Friday or when I can go back to Melborune in the morning had to drive home late when it started getting dark and ****** down rain and putting up with the traffic jams just to reach the west gate bridge.

[AussieToyotaAvalon]

Ok got the Avalon came back yesterday only a few things were seen to the rest were just fogged off again talked to the owner of the place and now there pulling the old "Well you should have brought all this up before you took the car out of the lot".

Were now deciding on if we should keep the car or re-sell the car if we keep the car we will need to respray the roof and back end and front left guard and then get a full RACV report and fix what needs doing and after that then it's worth keeping.

All I can say is DON'T GO TO FRANKSTON TOYOTA for a used car there getting NSW cars in with Vic plates.

Also stick to car yards that get pre RACV checks. Getting a RACV check done on a car you like could take upto 4 weeks depending on RACV bookings and the car dealer is not abliged to hold the car for more then 4 days.