Dyno run this morning.......

[gravityfreak]

119.2 kw at the wheels.

Oh and by the way - my car is STOCK. I will post the graph on Monday.

The Dyno Used is a direct coupling dyno made by Dynapack (www.dynapack.com) which has zero tyre slip, zero ratio changes due to tyre expansion and therefore supposedly much more accurate (though I am sure someone will argue otherwise.

[georgec]

119.2 kw at the wheels.

Oh and by the way - my car is STOCK. I will post the graph on Monday.

The Dyno Used is a direct coupling dyno made by Dynapack (www.dynapack.com) which has zero tyre slip, zero ratio changes due to tyre expansion and therefore supposedly much more accurate (though I am sure someone will argue otherwise.

←

Hi Gravityfreak,

Nice number however it's not a Dyno Dynamics run in shootout mode so the actual figure is essentially meaningless in comparison.

Cheers

gc

[trd_141]

stock stivos run between 96-98kw atw

id ask to have another dyno

[gravityfreak]

119.2 kw at the wheels.

Oh and by the way - my car is STOCK. I will post the graph on Monday.

The Dyno Used is a direct coupling dyno made by Dynapack (www.dynapack.com) which has zero tyre slip, zero ratio changes due to tyre expansion and therefore supposedly much more accurate (though I am sure someone will argue otherwise.

←

Hi Gravityfreak,

Nice number however it's not a Dyno Dynamics run in shootout mode so the actual figure is essentially meaningless in comparison.

Cheers

gc

←

Yes.......and your dynodynamics runs are even more meaningless as they cannot be compared with an accurate dyno, nor are they consistent in their own right.

I would rather have an accurate account of my cars output at the wheels, than be able to compare it to yours which has been measured on an inaccurate dyno.

I am sure that on the dyno I was on - your cars would be in the 120 - 130's which would be the actual output.

[Northy]

mate sorry to be so blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about, there is no way that you are doing 120atw with a stock Sportivo

[gravityfreak]

mate sorry to be so blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about, there is no way that you are doing 120atw with a stock Sportivo

←

Well I can't argue with you there mate - I don't know what i am talking about :D However, I can read a graph and I will post it for you to tear apart on Monday !

Do you not concede that this type of dyno is more accurate?

[CHA54]

mate sorry to be so blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about, there is no way that you are doing 120atw with a stock Sportivo

←

Well I can't argue with you there mate - I don't know what i am talking about :D However, I can read a graph and I will post it for you to tear apart on Monday !

Do you not concede that this type of dyno is more accurate?

←

Dyno's are tuning tools, the only way you can do a comparison is if you do runs with car's back to back with the same tyre pressure, wheel type/weight, same gear, etc etc etc.

If you put your car on a completely different type of dyno and state it's power figure for the purpose of comparison to other car's, you're an idiot. eg in your post above you haven't even stated what gear the run was performed in.

The newer type dyno dynamics units in shootout mode are known to be quite accurate, and are very handy for the purpose of dyno tuning and dyno comparison days like the recent one we had in Brisbane with 26 cars. At that day with drivetrain loss taken into consideration, the figures were quite accurate (apart from Northy's freakshow car :P)

I take all chassis dyno figures (even dynapak) with a large grain of salt, to me they are not worth the paper they are printed on when done on an individual basis.

If you want a really accurate figure, remove the engine from your car and put it on an ENGINE dyno, then you can quote the figures accurately.

[georgec]

Dyno's are tuning tools, the only way you can do a comparison is if you do runs with car's back to back with the same tyre pressure, wheel type/weight, same gear, etc etc etc.

If you put your car on a completely different type of dyno and state it's power figure for the purpose of comparison to other car's, you're an idiot.  eg in your post above you haven't even stated what gear the run was performed in.

The newer type dyno dynamics units in shootout mode are known to be quite accurate, and are very handy for the purpose of dyno tuning and dyno comparison days like the recent one we had in Brisbane with 26 cars.  At that day with drivetrain loss taken into consideration, the figures were quite accurate (apart from Northy's freakshow car :P)

I take all chassis dyno figures (even dynapak) with a large grain of salt, to me they are not worth the paper they are printed on when done on an individual basis.

If you want a really accurate figure, remove the engine from your car and put it on an ENGINE dyno, then you can quote the figures accurately.

←

Yes, you're quite correct with what you say, even if a little blunt

We all however want to put a tag on what we measure (and regardless of the stated intent, it is always for comparison) and in order to do that, we must measure to a standard, wether defacto or true. To that end, the defacto standard is DD Shootout. This allows one to dyno their vehicle and measure the power and torque at the treads (we do drive on the treads after all, not the brake hubs) using a set series of parameters that the dyno operator cannot alter. In addition, one can take that same vehicle to any other DD dyno on the planet and run in Shootout mode to receive consistent, accurate and comparable figures.

That's the whole idea of Shootout mode and why DD has been accepted within the industry and dyno competitions as the standard measurement tool.

That's not to say that the final figure is correct, it is none the less accurate and consistent. Perhaps we should state our figures as DDWkW (Dyno Dynamics Wheel kW).

Cheers

gc

[gravityfreak]

mate sorry to be so blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about, there is no way that you are doing 120atw with a stock Sportivo

←

Well I can't argue with you there mate - I don't know what i am talking about :D However, I can read a graph and I will post it for you to tear apart on Monday !

Do you not concede that this type of dyno is more accurate?

←

Dyno's are tuning tools, the only way you can do a comparison is if you do runs with car's back to back with the same tyre pressure, wheel type/weight, same gear, etc etc etc.

If you put your car on a completely different type of dyno and state it's power figure for the purpose of comparison to other car's, you're an idiot. eg in your post above you haven't even stated what gear the run was performed in.

The newer type dyno dynamics units in shootout mode are known to be quite accurate, and are very handy for the purpose of dyno tuning and dyno comparison days like the recent one we had in Brisbane with 26 cars. At that day with drivetrain loss taken into consideration, the figures were quite accurate (apart from Northy's freakshow car :P)

I take all chassis dyno figures (even dynapak) with a large grain of salt, to me they are not worth the paper they are printed on when done on an individual basis.

If you want a really accurate figure, remove the engine from your car and put it on an ENGINE dyno, then you can quote the figures accurately.

←

Blow it out your ***** boy.

I never said mine was better, faster or more powerfull than yours - I just stated what my reading was and on what dyno. Where on this site is there the charter that says "All dyno results posted here are to be done on the following machines at x temp and x time of day blah blah blah.

Yea we drive on our tyres not our hubs (thanks for pointing that out genius) but then our tyres don't slip on the road when traveling along as they do on a dyno.

So in conclusion, lighten up, chill out and do your best to get laid cause you are waaay too uptight.

[rollagrl]

enough of the DYNO argument please guys.

Justin posted this as he was amazed at the reading that this particular unit gave him. As it is not a typical Chassis dyno (hence the unusual reading) I shouldnt say unusual just not the dyno dynamics norm (which is not the be all and end all)

Justin will be posting another dyno once he has the pipe and CAI installed hopefully by this weekend.

then we will have a baseline and a second one to do a comparison with (which is why we dyno)

if this topic goes off into the realm of the others IT WILL BE CLOSED!

POSTED BY DANTHUYER

Edited December 17, 2004 by rollagrl

[SILVABULLIT]

The dyno in question does give you a reading substantially higher than a conventional dyno using rollers. I've had my car on two totally different types of dyno's - one being the dyno used for the dyno day at CES and the other being the Dyno dynamics dyno at C and J Motorsport.

I certainly didn't have 120 or so at the wheels but on CES' dyno i had 105kw and on the dyno dynamics dyno i had 107kw. Like it was mentioned a dyno is primarily for tuning purposes and can measure output as well. As for a dyno dynamics dyno not being able to be tampered with that is not true. JC had his ute on one and they played around with settings etc.

For instance they tied it down with ratchet straps. Sounds ok but tightened them down an extra 2 clicks and his ute lost some 25kw atw. Change the temp and atmospheric settings and get another different reading. So all do have some sort of " variables" that can be tampered with.

CES' dyno may be old but it has nothing that you can tamper with. No computer that you can set and fudge figures. Maybe older ones are better? As I found out it is pretty close to the mark of the more modern set ups.

I personally don't agree with the reading you get from the hub style dyno's as it's not a real world scenario. No we don't drive around on our hubs but instead on wheels and tyres. And yes they do spin otherwise how would your car move? Of all the cars we dynoed at the dyno day none of them broke traction on the rollers and the only car that gave us trouble was danthuyers due to a flat spotted tyre which caused the car to bounce at low speed.

So if you think hub style dynos are more accurate as they eliminate the tyre factor (wheelspin) then maybe you should remove the driveshafts as well cause who knows what sort of power are lost through them? Then what about the gearbox? Where do you stop?

If you truely want to know what you car produces then do as Northy says and pull the engine out and put it on an engine dyno therefore eliminating all variables.

My thoughts, my ideas so agree or disagree. Simple. Let's not whinge about the accuracy of dyno's etc again. Thanks.

PS. does your dyno sheet have hand written values? Cause I've heard that's a no no! :P Look in the mirror and have a laugh!

[Azza]

Maybe Dyno's need to take into consideration more realistic variables... here are some suggestions:

1) Pedestrians - We all know that some tool strolling the side-walk could be a hazard.

2) Traffic - No point having power with bumper to bumper traffic.

3) School Zones - Good justification to show how much power your car DOESN'T produce

4) RBT's - ditto

5) Fuel - I know my car goes a bucket load better when I'm running under a 1/4 tank

[SILVABULLIT]

Hey what's this picking on RBT's? I'm just out there making cars look better and go better :P

[georgec]

As for a dyno dynamics dyno not being  able to be tampered with that is not true. JC had his ute on one and they played around with settings etc.

For instance they tied it down with ratchet straps. Sounds ok but tightened them down an extra 2 clicks and his ute lost some 25kw atw. Change the temp and atmospheric settings and get another different reading. So all do have some sort of " variables" that can be tampered with.

Shootout mode has all operational variables set (ramp rates, inertia values etc tamper proof) and the environmental conditions from the weather station are printed on the bottom of the graph. A classic attempt at fudging is when you see the value of IT (intake temperature) being far greater than RT (room temperature). In other words they place the temp probe in the engine bay and the dyno will compensate (standardise) to a higher value.

As for clamping the vehicle down, it must be held securely. Your mate's car didn't lose 25 kW, it was a false reading because the dyno operator allowed it to climb up onto the front rollers.

So, in a nutshell, if you see shootout mode at the bottom of the graph and the weather station data looks reasonable there is no room for tampering (the issue of lifting up onto the front rollers is being addressed by DD with separate speed sensors on the front and rear rollers - but this is only to stop those who wish to obtain an unreasonably high figure from doing so). - and in our case, you'd just about have to give the car a push to have it climb the rollers.

CES' dyno may be old but it has nothing that you can tamper with. No computer that you can set and fudge figures. Maybe older ones are better? As I found out it is pretty close to the mark of the more modern set ups.

Do you know make what it is? I take it that it has no electric retarders and cannot hold load.

So if you think hub style dynos are more accurate as they eliminate the tyre factor (wheelspin) then maybe you should remove the driveshafts as well cause who knows what sort of power are lost through them? Then what about the gearbox? Where do you stop?

When tied down securely, it's not until you get well over the 1,000 hp at the treads that tyre slip becomes an issue. That's one problem I don't think we will ever have ;)

Cheers

gc

[SILVABULLIT]

Jc's ute was tied down too tightly. It didn't climb onto the front rollers as you suggested. The guys at the dyno shop admitted fault as he stood there and watched them right the wrong.

AS for CES' dyno it is a Bosch dyno. Not sure of model etc but for an oldie it's a goodie and semms to read pretty accuratly when compared to other late model ones.

cheers SILVABULLIT :D

[Azza]

Well, I have to admit that I have never had a Dyno done on any of my cars, but from what I have read about them both in this forum, and everywhere else in general, that while they can be percieved as a great comparitive tool as long as your conditions and settings are similar (like a science experiment) that at the end of the day, one would deduce that a peice of paper from a dyno is like a driver's licence - just becuase it says you can drive, doesn't mean you actually can....

I'm not doubting what the results of this particular dyno were, because this is a topic I am no genius at, but use it as a guide only hey.....

I see them as like thermometers. The outside temperature reading in the tivo tells me it is 32 degrees outside, but the other thermometer I have here at home says 30....

I guess the only way to settle it is to have a gentleman's (& ladies) agreement that regardless of what our dyno reading do or don't say, that we settle on a reasonable and optimistic figure and assume that all out tivo's get this result.

If you do some mods, then you get some braggin rites as to a slightly higher reading......

If you notice, most Japanese manufacturers will never quote a 'stock' vehicles reading on their performance cars as being higher than 206kw.

Toyota say that ours are supposed to be 141kw, but rumour has it that with the ADR recall they resulted with around 150kw, but I believe this is a fly-wheel reading or something....

Let's just all agree that the stock tivos have about 108 atw and modified ones increase slightly....

agreed (handshake)