Knock-off / Replica parts are KILLING Innovation

[Wink]

With the recent bankruptcy of Trust/GReddy (and not so recently Apexi) I thought it would be the perfect time to highlight this excellent article on how knock-off/replica parts (including wheels and bodykits) are killing off the real innovators.

Voltex just recently announced on their website that they are stopping all production of their wet carbon CT9A Lancer Evolution 8/9 hoods. Why? Because they learned that Seibon made a knockoff of their hood and that people were actually buying the knockoff. Out of concern that people could accidentally mistake the Seibon quality for Voltex quality if they saw it on a car at a race/street/show, Voltex made a statement on their website that they will no longer make that hood in wet carbon.

....

In a time when the Japanese tuning companies rely on overseas sales more than ever for their survival, they look over here and see cars on the covers of almost all US magazines with knockoffs of their products proudly sporting Seibon stickers and other like minded brands. Maybe you can tell me how to convince these companies in Japan to keep making new parts when their own fans who claim to represent JDM will drive around at the same time with a Seibon hood on their car.

I suggest you read the whole blog post:

LINK: http://www.bespokeventures.com/blog/?p=1002

So many of TOCAU forumgoers run replica/knock off items - just have a look at the wheels forum where people have wheels from knock-off companies like BSA with their disgusting 'VORK' wheels. It is disturbing that some forumgoers recommend replicas and knock-offs and not even bother mentioning the real thing.

How many CF hoods you see on cars are the real thing from Japan/bespoke or just a copy? With CF hoods it is generally VERY clear which is the knock-off and which is the real thing.

Next time you buy a knock-off - know that you maybe sending an innovative company broke or discouraging them in making performance parts for your next car. In today's (and especially Japan's) car climate where the car industry is moving away from performance and performance modifications to fuel efficiency and economy these performance parts manufacturers may need any kind of financial aid they can get.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Wink

[qkslvr]

Sounds analogous to the music and movie piracy argument. I think calling it 'disgusting' is quite unfair. The simple fact that 'knock offs' such as BSA wheels are cheaper and are easily accessible have alot to do with it. Who in their right mind is going to spend $2k+ for a set of forged wheels with no tyres simply just to drive on the street - not everyone.

You can blame the knock off as much as you like but the simple matter is that companies like Greedy and Trust simply didn't invest enough in overseas marketing, stock availability, and awareness of quality. In a nutshell, they opened up a gap wide enough for companies like BSA and Seibon to take advantage. It would be like Lotus blaming toyota or Mazda for killing the marketing for the small, rear wheel roadster. It's simply rediculous.

[Wink]

Sounds analogous to the music and movie piracy argument.

Yes except big name movie studios and big name artists don't go bankrupt, and Trust/GReddy is a big name in the performance parts world.

It would be like Lotus blaming toyota or Mazda for killing the marketing for the small, rear wheel roadster. It's simply rediculous.

Except Toyota and Mazda products are still made with good quality and aren't blatant rip-offs of designs from Lotus. There's a difference between inspiration and imitation.

If you want to use an analogy in the car manufacturer world, it's not Toyota/Mazda vs Lotus but more like the Mercedes C-Class vs the China-made Geely Merrie 300:

From your point of view I guess it's okay to buy replicas then. Well when the innovators die out, who is left to copy?

[qkslvr]

I said it was analogous, not the same situation. Secondly, expressing outrage over natural market forces is a little redundant. Thirdly, The chinese rip off haven't and will not destroy Mercedez simply because Mercedez have invested unholly amounts of money in the right sort of marketing and brand awareness. They have built up an image in all their markets.

It is completely and utterly Trust and Greddy's fault in not realising the importance of their overseas markets. It stems from the Japanese corporate/marketing culture where they keep the best for themselves - a simple example would be what Sony did with their PSP and PS3 product range. I could go on.

[Wink]

Secondly, expressing outrage over natural market forces is a little redundant.

There's something more than 'market forces' going on here. Is stealing IP a market force?

Mercedez have invested unholly amounts of money in the right sort of marketing and brand awareness. They have built up an image in all their markets.

It has taken Mercedes-Benz 100 years to build up this reputation. And you pointed out they have unholy amounts of money to throw at marketing - these parts manufacturer's don't.

It is completely and utterly Trust and Greddy's fault in not realising the importance of their overseas markets. It stems from the Japanese corporate/marketing culture where they keep the best for themselves - a simple example would be what Sony did with their PSP and PS3 product range. I could go on.

Culture could be one thing yes, but of course they realised the importance of overseas markets - look at how they sponsor and advertise in the US.

I wouldn't be as concerned if Trust/GReddy went over to the US and failed in establishing solid sales as they could not compete with US developed products on price and/or quality.

What concerns me is that they are losing sales to products which are exact copies of their own design. No improvements whatsoever except in price at the expense of quality.

Did you read the entire blog post?

Does this not concern you that outright stealing of design is occuring and possibly killing innovation?

If they do develop new products themselves, do you think these knock-off companies will spend as much on R&D as these JDM parts companies?

Edited September 11, 2008 by Wink

[-JC-]

I think there are some valid arguments both ways. However, I think the blatant stealing of ideas and design is the main issue. If Trust and Greddy were put out of business by companies manufacturing products that were different to theirs but cheaper and as effective, they would have nothing to complain about. Thats just healthy competition.

I think in this case, its more an issue that the copiers are making blatant copies of a wheel/part/whatever, and even going to lengths (ie: RAVS VORK/RAYS VOLK) to relate their copied product back to the original genuine product.

I have an issue with borderline copyright infringement moreso than healthy competition.

Having said this, if companies like Trust and Greddy were interested in their long term future, it could be said that they should maybe have seen this coming and spent more in advertising overseas to ensure that their name was protected and people knew the difference between their product and the knock offs.

I think here in Australia we still suffer from being so far away from the rest of the world, I can't imagine many CEO's of Japanese performance companies taking Australian markets into consideration when designing or marketing a product when they have been able to survive for so many years without the Aussie market, especially given that our business would have to be a very small percentage of their turnover.

Love a good discussion guys, keep it up. :)

[qkslvr]

meh. I'm not trying to argue with you so please don't treat it as such. let me rephrase that as i realised it sounds a little dismissive. let me start off by saying don't take what i say anything other than friendly debating. The reason i say this is because i've fallen into the trap in other threads where things got out of hand and ended up in a argument with the original poster B)

I'm simply saying that if your business model relies solely on someone not copying your ideas and selling it for cheaper then it's a disaster waiting to happen. what has happend is that these companies have failed to inovate (the very thing that these companies are claiming is suffering). $2000 forged rims is not innovation. A $300 peace of aluminium as a 'heat shield' is not innovation. What these companies have failed to do is convince us that spending this kind of money for a daily driven street car is worthwhile. As a direct consequence, cheaper knock-offs have been able to thrive. Because, lets face it, we all want the look but if we could comfortably afford it, we wouldn't be driving corollas :D

I guess a closer analogy would be that of clothing brands. How is it that companies like Politix, Diesel, Gstar can justify charging so much for their products when their designs are constantly being ripped off? simple answer; because they constantly come up with new designs.

I agree with you that stealing designs is kind of a dog act, but you've gotta be reactive to it.

Edited September 11, 2008 by qkslvr

[MR22ZZ]

Yes except big name movie studios and big name artists don't go bankrupt, and Trust/GReddy is a big name in the performance parts world.

um... yes they are.

Today music artists are supported more by commercial sponsorship than from retail sales.

ie it's mroe about marketability of the artist than quality of their music.

[mrs.sportivo]

... im not reading that LOL

[qkslvr]

... im not reading that LOL

would you read it if i typed in 'txt tlk'? haha

[-JC-]

... im not reading that LOL

would you read it if i typed in 'txt tlk'? haha

OMGWTFLOLCAT!!!!!11111 Ths thrd tkles teh bg ishuus. kthxbai.

Ladies and gentlemen, we now return you to normal programming. :D

[mrs.sportivo]

... im not reading that LOL

would you read it if i typed in 'txt tlk'? haha

OMGWTFLOLCAT!!!!!11111 Ths thrd tkles teh bg ishuus. kthxbai.

Ladies and gentlemen, we now return you to normal programming. :D

HAHAHAHA OMG ! ur so fcking hilarious aye ? like fck u should be a comedian or something man

... see the sarcasm ?

[-JC-]

Maybe chill? It was a joke.

[Wink]

I'm simply saying that if your business model relies solely on someone not copying your ideas and selling it for cheaper then it's a disaster waiting to happen. what has happend is that these companies have failed to inovate (the very thing that these companies are claiming is suffering). $2000 forged rims is not innovation.

With wheels I wouldn't say it's innovation (it'll always be round and metal) but more design/fashion. Part of the cost of producing these good looking wheels which other companies copy is for paying the designers.

If a company copies these wheels, they don't have to pay designers who come up with these great looking wheels.

I guess a closer analogy would be that of clothing brands. How is it that companies like Politix, Diesel, Gstar can justify charging so much for their products when their designs are constantly being ripped off? simple answer; because they constantly come up with new designs.

I agree with you that stealing designs is kind of a dog act, but you've gotta be reactive to it.

Great point.

Going back to the wheels market, I know the JDM wheels are relatively expensive but I just wish more people would consider them - if you are limited in how much you spend on wheels, rather than getting 17" replicas, for the same money why not get the real thing in 16" instead?

I guess most people wouldn't even consider it but that's part of the reason for my post; to at least get people thinking about genuine parts,

Edited September 11, 2008 by Wink

[-JC-]

I think the wheel thing is a really good example here. I wasn't even considering imported wheels until I discovered that if you have a look around, you can actually pick them up at a decent price.

I suppose budget can be an issue. And in the age of instant gratification that we live in, people are more likely to buy a knock off that is readily available and cheap, as opposed to importing parts etc.

It is certainly a bit of a worry that if things were to get to a worst case scenario we may be left without wonderful devices like Rays wheels, apexi PFC's etc etc. That really would be a shame, as I am definitely a convert to the genuine JDM stuff after buying my rims, I even had people who know nothing about cars commenting on how well made they looked when I took them out of the box.

[mrs.sportivo]

Maybe chill? It was a joke.

u cant see my joke ?

[DHC09]

One thing to note here is that car parts are not just about fashion and looks, it needs to be of quality; unlike fake designer jeans or Hermes/LV Bags.

The main issue here is that the Japanese take great pride in the quality of their work, and when other people make replicas of their trademark design of lesser quality, it tarnishes their name and reputation.

Unfortunately its much harder to distinguish between real and replica car parts, compared to say fake LV bags. Therefore what these Jap companies fear most is when people who have only seen photos of their items on websites/magazines, will one day see a replica thinking its genuine and think "Damn it looked a lot better on net and the quality are a bit dodgy too. These crazy Japs are full of BS!"

So in the end of the day its not about their failure to penetrate the world market or make its so cheap that every boy-racer can fit their items as a fashion statement, but rather for real car enthusiasts who will fork out the big cash cause at least they can understand and appreciate what they are buying.

Yes, some of these JDM companies are closing down or discontinuing items due to competition from the replica making companies, but a good part of it is their way of saying a big F-U we're not going to associate ourselves with the other rubbish being sold.

Everyone wants cheap AND quality, but most of the time you can only get one.

[-JC-]

Everyone wants cheap AND quality, but most of the time you can only get one.

Cheap, Fast, Reliable . . . . . you may choose only 2.

[qkslvr]

So in the end of the day its not about their failure to penetrate the world market or make its so cheap that every boy-racer can fit their items as a fashion statement, but rather for real car enthusiasts who will fork out the big cash cause at least they can understand and appreciate what they are buying.

And this is the reason why they are going out of business. You can't simply put a superior product on the market and expect everyone to appreciate the fact without putting the effort in making it known. Maybe they could have introduced a cheaper 'entry level' product with the possibility of upselling to the premium product through the use of price-points (think apple iPod. "Oh the 8gig is only $79 more, and the 16gig is another $79 on top of that. what should i buy?")

It's ok to give nods to those who appreciate this kind of thing at the highest level but that is not their bread-and-butter market. It's those 'casual DIY modders' that are their main revenue stream. These are the people that Greedy and Trust have let slip through their fingers. They're great at making parts but they suck at doing business, i'm afraid.

[Tats]

It's a shame but as long as China gives no fu(k for copyright infringement (that's assuming companies bother to take out copyrights on their product designs) and enthusiasts are willing to settle for less with their parts, it will just keep happening. I must have seen a dozen people on different forums say that they'd prefer to buy a **** copy exhaust manifold every year for $200 and wait till it splits rather than part with $1500 once and be done with it.

Bang for buck rules over badge cred - why would Johnny Hatbackwards buy a $5k Trust T67 kit for his JZA80 when he can get the "same" parts from eBay for $2k? Forget the fact that the spring in the wastegate doesn't work and the welds in the manifold leaks like a sieve, some dude on the internet told him it will be good for 600hp!!!!11!1!!11oneone

[Tats]

It's those 'casual DIY modders' that are their main revenue stream. These are the people that Greedy and Trust have let slip through their fingers. They're great at making parts but they suck at doing business, i'm afraid.

Good point - and that is why companies like Hypergear turbos are doing well. $1-2k setup for a 1JZ good for 400rwhp, versus $3k+ for a HKS or Trust/GReddy kit.

[DHC09]

Need to remember that a lot of parts and even cars were never intended to be sold and used outside of Japan, and in many cases, these items are sourced by or licensed to local resellers to market for them. I'm sure most of these JDM companies are still quite comfortable with their own domestic market, but are closing down their offshore branches or stopping production of certain items due to lack of business and just ****** off that their stuff gets copied as soon as they hit foreign shores after so much R&D.

Yes there are many products which ranges from the softcore to hardcore levels. But you got to remember that these things don't sell in the millions like iPod. The volume of most parts sold are only in the hundreds maybe thousands. And as a manufacture knowing that, and have a hardcore product fresh off the R&D in your hand, would you really make and sell a softer/watered-down product that could potentially waste the time and money of 70-80% of your potential customers? Some of these JDM companies maybe a bit stubborn with their marketing I agree, but you get the feeling they are hardcore racers too, don't want to waste their own and the customers time with products not true to their own potential.

One example on TOCAU is with the coilovers. We all know there are some great quality coilovers available to us but costs bunch, then came the cheaper watered-down variant. Many many of us jumped on (including myself), having later to find out it wasn't worth the effort nor the money. A good chunk of these people who got these "entry" level coilovers had simply just turned away completely from the whole thing (coilovers), which was a shame cause I and some others went on and bit the bullet and got the coilovers that costed a kidney and realised how they were supposed to be and couldn't be happier.

Edited September 11, 2008 by DHC09

[SuperDave]

I wouldn't be as concerned if Trust/GReddy went over to the US and failed in establishing solid sales as they could not compete with US developed products on price and/or quality.

What concerns me is that they are losing sales to products which are exact copies of their own design. No improvements whatsoever except in price at the expense of quality.

Not being a nit picker. But if you investigate the GReddy SC kit for the Celica it is rubbish. No after sale support, brackets break and the SC pulley fails early. Nothing a few dollars for upgraded aftermarket parts can't fix. I make it seem minor, but the fellas in the States aren't impressed by it all. Hopefully not all of GReddy's products are like that, as it is the cheapest power gain for a 2zz.

I'm not a fan of knock offs either. I know how much effort goes into the R&D side of things and reverse engineering is pretty damn cheap. But I still feel that Japanese companies need to take Australia seriously. We may not have as much money to spend as the Japanese or the Americans, but we get over charged for for stuff here. Compare the price of cars for example. The problem is there are enough idiots willing to pay that much money for the goods that the sellers can get away with it. The bottled water example springs to mind. Or the fact Nissan Australia wants to charge 150 large for the GTR, while in Japan it is Y7,770,000, or about 91 large at the current exchange rate.

As DHC said, the cars they made parts for were never sold outside of Japan. However this shows their lack of ability to move with the market as they should know that a lot of cars are being exported out of Japan. I would like to see them survive as it allows all of us to personalise our cars when we don't have the know how or means to do the work ourselves.

[xoom]

ahhheemmmmmm ...... not considering JDM he says generalising :P :P :P :P

[MR22ZZ]

Maybe chill? It was a joke.

u cant see my joke ?

no... it needed mroe lols :P