KING SPRINGS Low V's Super Low Debate

[Blind Kid Seeks]

ok Guys....

Just to be clear.. this isnt a ****** contest about whos car is faster or whatever....

My sportivo has the Low's - Front, Super Lows - Rear setup... as reccomended by many members on here.

wat are the advantages of this setup over All round Lows? Apart from the looks... were there handling advantages??

[whitestivo]

I think with lows on the back, the car sits higher at the back, so the car unloads weight onto the front wheels to handle better, as more weight on front, helps steering and brakes.

My thought was if Toyota designed it that way, why change it.

whitestivo

[Blind Kid Seeks]

I think with lows on the back, the car sits higher at the back, so the car unloads weight onto the front wheels to handle better, as more weight on front, helps steering and brakes.

My thought was if Toyota designed it that way, why change it.

whitestivo

fair point... but in saying that.. and keeping to it... we'd all be cruisng stock Stivo's... BORING... and SLOWer

[whitestivo]

don't mix design with regulations

power is largely determined by emissions regulation, like the reflash and classifying the sportivo as a sports car so more emission friendly

suspension is design.

whitestivo

[chicaboo]

A few guys reckon the SLs on the rear give the car a better spring rate balance for improved handling. It's the same concept that Phil is talking about, but approached in another direction. ie: using weight shift with high rear end (Ls) vs stiffer rear end to corner better (SLs).

I've pained over this decision, and made the decision to get the Eibach Pro-kit. Eibach do a level drop as far as I know. They cost more than double what Kings do, but they are so impressive that you don't really need to invest in struts right away. I had Eibachs in both of my Astinas, and they were the best mod ever. :P

I would prefer a bit more drop in the rear to bring the nose up, but at the end of the day, I trust that Eibach have done their homework before putting their name on a product. In the future I will be considering Tokico HP or Illumina struts, but who knows...?

Cheers, Gav.

[jaderd]

from ppl telling me about my car and from what i can see stock shocks with lows all round..........sits level and looks fine

i think there is also confusion here between having stock shocks and what springs.....from my car and what i can tell low all round is fine on stock shocks.....if i put superlow in rear on stock shocks i would drag the bum.

although dependent on the brand of aftermarket shocks i have SL in rear may make it look even and level but then you may be losing in the handling area in realtion to SL having a linear spring rate while L has a progressive .....

so i guess it also depends on your shocks and the seating height of the springs.....then you have to choose looks (level car) or handling (progressive V linear)

[jaderd]

but they are so impressive that you don't really need to invest in struts right away.

Cheers, Gav.

i spoke to afew suspension places and they stated a 30mm drop (lows) will hardly effect the life of your shocks....if you bottom out and cane the car all the time over bumps yeah maybe but normally driving i was told not to worry to much about saving up for replacing shocks.....ie may last 2-3years etc.....so far its been about 8-10 months and all seems fine while changing rims around i looked for weaping etc...none there

cheers

[doriae86]

heres a pic of my shtr with super lows

the car isnt too low and even with a full car load of mates ive found that it has adequate ground clearance.

on the road combined with koni sports shocks the car rides & handles considerably better than stock

measurements after installation indicate the car sits 5mm higher at the rear - fuc all!

important to note that the cars stance has passed the all important peer assesment - my mates rekon the height is perfect :)

with regards to the mismatched springs and handing, i would expect that having the rear of the car sitting lower relative to the front would have a negative impact on handing through reduced front end grip (understeer)

[doriae86]

I would prefer a bit more drop in the rear to bring the nose up

why ?

light front end = less grip = bad handling

[whitestivo]

bingo

whitestivo

[vvti16v]

Do they all sag after a few year??

[Blind Kid Seeks]

it doesnt Make the car LIGHTER at the front in any way though... it just makes the back sit lower... not heavier. right?

i dont get your argument...

its nto like you have moved your engine back further.. that WOULD decrease the weight on the front.

[chicaboo]

but they are so impressive that you don't really need to invest in struts right away.

Cheers, Gav.

i spoke to afew suspension places and they stated a 30mm drop (lows) will hardly effect the life of your shocks....if you bottom out and cane the car all the time over bumps yeah maybe but normally driving i was told not to worry to much about saving up for replacing shocks.....ie may last 2-3years etc.....so far its been about 8-10 months and all seems fine while changing rims around i looked for weaping etc...none there

cheers

I was refering to the damper rates matching the spring rates, not so much longevity. Eibach springs are somehow magically more comfortable than stock springs, so the damp settings aren't so important for until the shocks do eventually wear out.

Cheers, Gav.

[chicaboo]

I would prefer a bit more drop in the rear to bring the nose up

why ?

light front end = less grip = bad handling

I bought Eibachs that give a level drop. But my comment above is purely about aesthetics and practicality of clearing kerbs. Another 15-20mm drop in the rear brings the nose up about 5mm or more. Which doesn't sound like much, until you just strike a kerb or something... I will also be towing a trailer for my dune buggy, so I really need more height in the rear to accommodate for the slump with the trailer on.

Cheers, Gav.

[Blind Kid Seeks]

I would prefer a bit more drop in the rear to bring the nose up

why ?

light front end = less grip = bad handling

I bought Eibachs that give a level drop. But my comment above is purely about aesthetics and practicality of clearing kerbs. Another 15-20mm drop in the rear brings the nose up about 5mm or more. Which doesn't sound like much, until you just strike a kerb or something... I will also be towing a trailer for my dune buggy, so I really need more height in the rear to accommodate for the slump with the trailer on.

Cheers, Gav.

my point exactly it doesnt CHANGE the WEIGHT

[chicaboo]

If I'm not mistaken, when lowering the rear end on my RC cars (compared to the front), it will understeer a bit more. The point load over the tyre doesn't change, but somehow the dynamics of the suspension does. Someone in the know would have to explain it. It's probably something to do with reducing the centre of gravity relationship from front to back. This is why it's illegal to actually do it in QLD (well, it was last time I checked), and it's also one of the questions insurance companies ask if you mention that your car has been lowered.

Something you have to consider is that someone may prefer understeer to oversteer, and vice versa. Consequently the one they prefer is better handling to them. For me I do well with firmish suspension with baggy 15" tyres. :)

Gav.

[Blind Kid Seeks]

this is why i am asking the question i guess....

is the change in Geometry better 1 way or the other?

wheres Superdave when you want some results. *looks around*

[chicaboo]

Andy,

I've been looking at the debate in black and white, ie: just the height relationship changing the geometry. As Brennden would point out, the SL's have a higher spring rate, so everything I said above may not be true, as the additional firmness may compensate for the lower CG. It may even strike a perfect balance for all we know, and I'm sure some would testify that it does. ;)

If you flip the argument around - just firming up the rear springs without reducing the height will make the car oversteer. Please refer to my post above for the inverse. :P

Gav.

[doriae86]

it doesnt Make the car LIGHTER at the front in any way though... it just makes the back sit lower... not heavier. right?

i dont get your argument...

its nto like you have moved your engine back further.. that WOULD decrease the weight on the front.

Your right, the front of the car wouldn’t be any lighter, but it’s about the weight transfer as you accelerate, turn and brake.

Put simply and without the use of capital letters to add emphasis . . .

As you accelerate and break the weight of your car is transferred back and forward respectively

During acceleration having the rear of the car lower will result in more weight transferring to the rear of the car increasing the rear grip, decreasing front grip

Add a corner to the equation the car having transferred more weight to the rear and trying to get drive out of the corner through one front wheel will more likely spin the inside wheel and understeer.

Same theory applies to braking - the front end of the car does the majority of the work when it comes to stopping. The car will perform best under brakes when the weight transfers towards the front of the car under brakes. In my opinion having your chassis setup with the nose higher than the rear reduces the ability of the cars weight to transfer forward and as a result will reduce overall braking performance

[whitestivo]

my third gear power slide and subsequent spin last night is testimony to the oversteer possiblity of our car

go into a corner at high speed, hit the brakes, you will feel the car lurch forward, this is what i mean when I say the weight shifts onto the front tyres to help them bite. you change the balance, you change that. jump in your car right now, go for a drive, you will understand.

whitestivo

[chicaboo]

Dori makes a good point, you shouldn't use capital letters! :P

But seriously, I need to correct myself about "point load", I was looking at the world in black and white again... Dori explained it in his words, let me have a go again. *puts on engineer hat*

The car is not lighter in each corner by changing the spring height, in the building industry we call this dead load (pointload was a very poor choice of words Gav).

But by changing the spring height (and rate), you change the live/dynamic load during braking/acceleration and manoeuvring as Dori points out.

This is the relationship between the centre of gravity I was refering to earlier when I didn't know how to put it into words as well as Dori did.

Buggers me how you would simulate this on paper or in a model to design the setup you want without road testing. It may not even be fully possible, so that's why this debate will have no absolute conlusion given that the spring rates (and damper rates) will change all the variables after you've just considered the height alone...

Cheers, Gav.

[chicaboo]

my third gear power slide and subsequent spin last night is testimony to the oversteer possiblity of our car

go into a corner at high speed, hit the brakes, you will feel the car lurch forward, this is what i mean when I say the weight shifts onto the front tyres to help them bite. you change the balance, you change that. jump in your car right now, go for a drive, you will understand.

whitestivo

You can induce awesome oversteer>understeer in Sportivos! Just ask MAP81! ;)

Gav.

[Suprathai]

Dunno how I would help int this debate. But this is what happened.

When I got my new shocks I used king lows front and back, but the height thing was really bugging me. The handling improved over stock but it felt as if the front was getting alot of the weight shifted to it, I then later installed a set of sportivo accessory springs from toyota (20mm drop) at the front only and that made everything sit more flat then before. The change in handling was considerable, the car was considerably more stable around corners. I'm pretty sure that the spring rate between the two springs were pretty much the same if not similiar.

[Blind Kid Seeks]

cool i understand about the load points.. its getting clearer.

Apologies about the caps... force of habit... i'll use italics from now on.

just to clarify...

Lows at the front drop ~30mm

Super lows at rear drop ~50mm

but this gives level ride height.

[doriae86]

measuring my car from the ground to the highest point on the wheel arches front to back is 625 & 630mm respectivly.

from that, assuming the drop figures you provide are correct you should be able to determine how level or otherwise your car is