White smoke exhaust start up

[cranswick]

Hi l have a 20 year  old camry, a few weeks ago l had a gasket cover broken leaking oil and they repaired it. LAst week l have noticed white smoke from my exhaust but after l have driven a couple of minutes it stops and it only happens on the first start up for the day, for example when l start the car in the morning l get some white smoke, but if l go for another drive a few hours later in the day l dont get any white smoke on start up. Its been cold and raining past week, my garage has a roof but no doors so the car is exposed overnight to the weather. IS the white smoke on start up simple condensation from the cold and rain or could it be something more serious that l should get checked

[ozieagle]

Hi John,

It could well be just condensation .Have a smell, coolant has a sickly sweet smell.

 

Herb

[cranswick]

thanks there was no smell from the coolant. l still get the white smoke when l first start the car for the day then after a few minutes is gone, is that normal ow do l know if its just consdensation or something more serious

Edited July 1, 2023 by cranswick

[ozieagle]

Hi 

No smell, unlikely to be coolant, unless only water is in the cooling system, White smoke (steam) is from a water source. The only places I can think of, where water can come from, are the cooling system or condensation. To be safe, keep an eye on the coolant level.

 

Herb

[Tony Prodigy]

You need to be careful what you determine to be smoke. Smoke is pretty obvious but every car on start up, especially on the colder mornings, will exhibit steam from the exhaust. The hot gases exiting the engine travel through a cold metal pipe (your exhaust), where condensation will form due to the temperature difference. The resultant condensation will start to evaporate into steam as the pipe heats up. It has no smell to it except your typical exhaust fumes.

White smoke can either be a plugged up EGR valve or head gasket issue.

[cranswick]

lm not sure if its steam of white smoke, when l first start the car for the day what looks like white smoke comes out the exhaust but after l have driven a few minutes it stops and doesnt happen again for the rest the day,for example if l start the car a second time in the afternoon l wont get any white smoke . Does that sound like its steam and condesation because the white smoke or steam stops after a few minutes, if it was a serious problem like a blown gasquet would the white smoke not stop after a few minutes but keep going all day while the engines on

Edited July 2, 2023 by cranswick

[Tony Prodigy]

14 hours ago, cranswick said:

if it was a serious problem like a blown gasquet would the white smoke not stop after a few minutes but keep going all day while the engines on

Pretty much yes. If coolant is leaking into the combustion chamber, then you will have the by product at the tail pipe, which is the tell tale white smoke. If the leakage is slow or intermittent, you may only see white smoke intermittently too. You can also verify this if you are losing coolant and having to top it off regularly. A pressure test of the cooling system can verify this as can a compression test of the cylinders.

If you had a proper head gasket issue, then your car will become undriveable. I don't think this is the case.

Did you discuss any of this with your mechanic ? 
Are you able to do any DIY things yourself ?

[cranswick]

l think the smoke is slighlty blue, l only get it on the first start up for the day in the morning and after drive a few minutes it goes away, if l start the car again later in the day when the engine is still warm l dont get the smoke. After doing research l think the problem is faulty valve  stem seals. How long can l keep driving before l get serious problems,what is the cost of replacing stem seals . Does additives like rislone valv seal work

Edited July 30, 2023 by cranswick

[ozieagle]

Hi,

The way to test valve seals is to find a respectable hill, start driving down it at a fair speed and then take your foot off the accelerator. If there is bluish smoke it indicates valve seals.

I don't know about additives, but one can only try. Continuing to drive won't damage anything, but your spark plugs may foul up with carbon. Just keep an eye on your oil level.

 

Herb

Edited July 30, 2023 by ozieagle

[cranswick]

l only get the smoke from the exhaust after l have left the car sitting overnight, from what l read over night oil leaks from the seals and when l you start the car in the morning the oil burns off as smoke for a few minutes, lm guessing but l think that means faulty seals. l rang my garage and told them about the smoke and they said they think its oil burn and to drive another 1500 km and then take it into the garage, so if l keep driving with faulty seals and keep the oil level topped up do you thn 

[Tony Prodigy]

Stem seals are easy to do and not a major cost. That would explain the oil loss. The engine can burn oil to a lesser degree over a given distance and not exhibit the tell tail blue smoke during the journey.

The worst is, of course, on start up because the oil tends to collect around the valve stems, and when the engine has been stationary, the residual oil will run down the stem, past the seal and collect in the inside of the valve waiting to be burnt.

I think we're getting somewhere here now.

[cranswick]

59 minutes ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Stem seals are easy to do and not a major cost. That would explain the oil loss. The engine can burn oil to a lesser degree over a given distance and not exhibit the tell tail blue smoke during the journey.

The worst is, of course, on start up because the oil tends to collect around the valve stems, and when the engine has been stationary, the residual oil will run down the stem, past the seal and collect in the inside of the valve waiting to be burnt.

I think we're getting somewhere here now.

thanks yes before l thought it was white smoke but l think theres a slight blue tint and l showed the smoke to a guy from the RACV and he said he thought it was oil burn. l am using more oil then normal , past 800 KM l have gone from near full on dipstick to half way. the smoke only started after the oil change when he put in the thicker 15w-40 mineral oil instead of the usual 5w 30 but they said that has nothing to do with the smoke, Do you think its most likely fault stem seal valves or could it be something else. so if it is the stem seals is that not a serious or expensive problem? THe garage said not to take it back until l have driven another 1500 km or two months , maybe they want to see how much oil l have used, Do you think lf l keep driving another 2 months  it it will be OK as long as l check the oil levels  or should l ask to get it fixed now

Edited July 30, 2023 by cranswick

[Tony Prodigy]

31 minutes ago, cranswick said:

the smoke only started after the oil change when he put in the thicker 15w-40 mineral oil instead of the usual 5w 30 but they said that has nothing to do with the smoke

Maybe it's just a co-incidence because thicker oil won't cause this issue. Logically speaking, thinner oil would exacerbate the oil burn.

36 minutes ago, cranswick said:

Do you think lf l keep driving another 2 months  it it will be OK as long as l check the oil levels  or should l ask to get it fixed now

Just monitor oil level. Engine will still run ok despite the mystery of the oil burn.

I'm starting to think you may also have a blow by issue too. Excessive positive crank case pressure can make it burn more oil. Too much oil in the combustion chamber can make it blow white smoke then white with a blue tinge.

If you are saying you never had oil burning issues prior to the addition of the 15w -40 mineral oil, then just go back to the 5w-30 fully synthetic and see if it exhibits the same symptoms.

I'd also think about putting some engine flush in there too, just incase you have stuck rings from the carbon build up. This may take some time to clean up if the engine is carbon fouled.

A probe camera down the spark plug hole can tell a useful story if your mechanic has one. Allow the car to sit overnight, preferably, to simulate the same conditions and go in there and see if there is any oil seepage into the combustion chamber and if possible along the valve stems. The latter may be more difficult, better if the intake or exhaust manifolds are removed. 

[cranswick]

thanks if its just the stem seals then does that mean its not a serious problem.  What does a blow by issue mean? Regarding monitoring the oil level when should l top  up the oil , should l wait until its at the bottom low notch of the dipstick or should l top it up once it gets below the half way point between the top and bottom notch.

[Tony Prodigy]

10 hours ago, cranswick said:

if its just the stem seals then does that mean its not a serious problem.

Not really, no. It just means that you just get oil seepage down the valve stem which enters the combustion chamber. Smoke on start up is the usual result as it burns this away.

10 hours ago, cranswick said:

What does a blow by issue mean?

Blow-by is cylinder pressure that leaks past the piston rings into the crankcase. Commonly, it starts as cylinder glazing or carbon forming in the top ring grooves, both of which allow cylinder leak down, and some oil burning. Oil burning produces further ring deposits, and more blow-by.

You can usually tell if your engine suffers from blow by. Just remove the oil fill cap whilst the engine is running and if air pressure comes out of the rocker cover then that'll be blow by.

This is why I mentioned "Engine Flush" in your next oil change. It will try to clean the gummed up carbon deposits and any potential sludge.

10 hours ago, cranswick said:

Regarding monitoring the oil level when should l top  up the oil

I'd not let it get too low. Just check it daily and adjust as required. A full dip stick is always desirable to maintain proper lubrication and reduce heat of friction.

[cranswick]

hi l just removed the oil cap like you said and there was heaps of air pressure coming out, how serious a problem is the blow back , is it an urgent problem and l should l take it to the garage right away ,n could it be blocked pcv valve , how do they fix it, is it a engine flush,l read some blow by is normal how do l tell if its normal level or too much

Edited August 1, 2023 by cranswick

[Tony Prodigy]

1 minute ago, cranswick said:

hi l just removed the oil cap like you said and there was heaps of air pressure coming out, how serious a problem is the blow back , should l take it to the garage right away , how do they fix it, is it a engine flush, is that cheap , thanks

It's not ideal, but one can live with it if you keep adding oil.

If the engine is worn, ie, piston rings etc then it's probably time for a full rebuild or replacement.

There is the potential for it to be stuck rings as previously mentioned due to sludge and carbon deposits.

Before your next oil change, add a bottle of engine flush to it, top up the oil to full and let it run for around 10-15 minutes, then do an oil change. I'm guessing your mechanic will be doing it unless you're in a position to do it yourself. Read the instruction on the bottle. Each manufacturer will have their own specific directions for use.

There is plenty of info online on how to de sludge and engine. Some of us here have been down that road already and have flushed their engines with a mix of diesel fuel in the oil.
You may need to repeat the cycle a few times and see if there's an appreciable difference. It's hard to make a definitive conclusion as I have no idea the condition of your engine, mileage or service history, but it seems like it's gummed up in there.

That would be the cheapest way to start with. No point spending money on major a mechanical overhaul if it's too far gone. It's entirely up to you.

Baby steps first.

[ozieagle]

Quote

Hi,

If removing the oil filler cap allows pressure to escape, there is s problem with your PCV setup, faulty valve or blocked hoses. It can also be the cause of your high oil consumption.

Herb

[Tony Prodigy]

22 hours ago, ozieagle said:

Hi,

If removing the oil filler cap allows pressure to escape, there is s problem with your PCV setup, faulty valve or blocked hoses. It can also be the cause of your high oil consumption.

I assumed PCV was already checked and discounted.

[cranswick]

l dont know if they checked pcv at the garage last time, im taking it back in september for a  service and ask them to look into the oil burn and smoke,burn, blow by  problem, it seems to be running totally well now apart from that, just hope its stays that way until l take it in september

[Tony Prodigy]

8 hours ago, cranswick said:

l dont know if they checked pcv at the garage last time, im taking it back in september for a  service and ask them to look into the oil burn and smoke,burn, blow by  problem, it seems to be running totally well now apart from that, just hope its stays that way until l take it in september

It will be fine. Just keep the oil topped up mate.

[cranswick]

On 8/4/2023 at 5:49 AM, Tony Prodigy said:

It will be fine. Just keep the oil topped up mate.

yes the oil past 1,000 km has gone from full dipstick to half way , is that normal for a 20 year old car 340,000km or excessive? ,also l noticed past few days theres alot less smoke from the exhaust on start up, l would say about half as much smoke as before , l wonder why that is

Edited August 4, 2023 by cranswick

[Tony Prodigy]

2 hours ago, cranswick said:

1,000 km has gone from full dipstick to half way , is that normal for a 20 year old car 340,000km or excessive?

Yeah, it is a bit much. You really need to do the checks we've all been saying to ascertain the engine health. A compression test would be at the top of my list.

[Towtruck_73]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:41 AM, ozieagle said:

The short answer is that it's usually valve stem seals, especially on worn alloy head engines. It's the seal between the valve stem and the head which like the piston rings, is meant to be airtight. When they're worn, a tiny amount of oil will seep past them when the engine is cold and/or has been sitting for a while. The smoke is a small amount of oil that seeps into the cylinders, which causes the smoke when you first start up.

 

[Towtruck_73]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:22 AM, cranswick said:

Hi l have a 20 year  old camry, a few weeks ago l had a gasket cover broken leaking oil and they repaired it. LAst week l have noticed white smoke from my exhaust but after l have driven a couple of minutes it stops and it only happens on the first start up for the day, for example when l start the car in the morning l get some white smoke, but if l go for another drive a few hours later in the day l dont get any white smoke on start up. Its been cold and raining past week, my garage has a roof but no doors so the car is exposed overnight to the weather. IS the white smoke on start up simple condensation from the cold and rain or could it be something more serious that l should get checked