Thinking of buying a sports exhaust?

[gravityfreak]

My CES Exhaust story.

For those of you considering a sports exhaust, you may find this interesting or at least of some help.

About six months ago I ordered a CES system for my ‘stivo. Having done the suspension it was time for more power as I felt that the engine would respond well to a pipe. I own a Yamaha WR400F which is a high performance four stroke. When I saw how well my bike responded to a racing pipe – I figured our Yamaha made engine would have to respond well too.

After positive reports from Silverbullet and Danthyer and claims of 6-10kw’s of gain – I was excited. I had ordered a TRD CAI but it had not yet arrived so when the CES arrived I slapped it on. I had dyno’d the car the week before so knew what the base power was.

After the pipe was fitted I was expecting a lot. Boy was I disappointed. Firstly the noise: It does drone. But then power and noise go hand in hand generally speaking and I have yet to hear a free flow system that does not drone somewhat. Once you get used to it, it is not bad and the note it produces when revved is quite pleasing and encourages you to drive it hard – just to hear it scream.

The power was the issue. A noticeable flat spot was felt at 5000 RPM and if anything the car felt the same or worse for it. At this point I called CES and let them know that I was unhappy as well as giving Silverbullet and Danth a hard time (well not really) for pushing it on the forum. The dyno I did a few days later confirmed a 1kw increase in power and he flat spot at 5ooo RPM. I was not a happy camper having dropped $900 on this pipe. About the only thing I was not ****** off about was the quality and workmanship which was / is fantastic. The bends are great and it looks the mutts nuts.

Then my CAI arrived. As promised by all who have fitted one – it delivered. Immediately the car came to life adding gains in the midrange and bringing the hi cam lift to life. But still the flat spot persisted which really annoyed me. Then something strange happened. Over a period of about 2 weeks (by the way I did reset the ECU when I fitted the CAI and the pipe), the car started getting stronger and stronger. The flat spot disappeared and suddenly the car was pulling HARD in the midrange and EXPLODING in lift. On certain surfaces, the wheels would chirp in first and second gears – just from hitting lift!.

I ended up taking it off a few months back and putting it up for sale because I couldn’t seem to get the resonator to stop rattling against the heat shield. The resonator is much bigger than standard and is a tight fit. Others have had this issue too. Combined with many long drives I was doing (highway drone at 110 km/ph ) I decided to take it off and see what the car was like with the stock pipe and CAI. The result is a much quieter drive but one which is far less exciting. Immediately I noted the loss in throttle response – big difference. Power from 4-5000RPM suffered noticeably and lift was somewhat (but not too baldy) affected. I did enjoy the quiet though.

But then I got bored. So a week ago I put my CES pipe back on and this time managed to sort out the rattles. My friend drove it on Saturday and remarked how big a difference it has made to the mid range and how much more torque it has. I am now happy!

So what can you take from this little story: In MY experience (and that is not to say this is the same for everyone), the pipe without a CAI did not make any real difference. With the CAI how ever, it has brought the engine to life. The workmanship is top notch and the sound is acceptable.

Pros:

Great workmanship and understated looks

Great mid range gains with CAI

Good top end gains with CAI

Acceptable noise for every day driving

Nice exhaust note

Inspires you to drive HARD.

Cons:

Resonator clearance is tight making rattles hard to resolve

Small / no gains without CAI (in my experience)

Drones at 3-3500 RMP (which is highway speed)

LOUD in lift (attracts the attention

P.S. – I have not Dyno’d the car with the Pipe and CAI together.

Edited May 23, 2005 by gravityfreak

[oz_viking]

Just goes to show that the ECU is continually learning and adapting. It also makes sense that the best gains are seen with a CAI.

Did you go to QLD or order from CES?

[shaohaok]

that's exactly wat i felt when i added CAI to my magnaflow. then i took the magnaflow off and the felt the same thing, too. i took it off for the same reason as u did, too.

i also had excatly the same thing when i just had the muffler.

the only thing tho was that i didn't get a chance to put my magnaflow back on...

[Ic3Man]

ahhh thats crap ...

then a sports exhaust is somewhat useless without a CAI ??

does anybody here have a sports exhaust without a CAI and havent had this problem ??

[CAP]

No, both will give you benefits individually, but both complement each other when combined.

[Azza]

As Danz will tell you....

they....

SYNERGISE....

:P

[SILVABULLIT]

Every car is different as we saw at the dyno day last year where we had stocko's from 96 to 104kw atw. My car with just the exhaust picked up 9 kwatw and the improvement was right through the rev range as the dyno sheet showed. What some people call a drone others say is acceptable so that's a personal preference. My wife drives our Stivo to work everyday and if it droned then I certainly would hear about it!! I find the exhaust note to be fine and of course when you hit lift then ooohhh yeah!!! It sounds great. The rattle on the heat shield with the resonator has to do with the rear mounts on the muffler. If you line them up then no rattles. But if you say for instance have the pipe bottom out on a huge mother of a speed bump then it pushes the system on the mounts and it moves slightly and therefore it gets the rattles. Quick adjustment on the rubbers and it's all good.

Well as for gravityfreak's problems with no gains on a stock car I have no answer for it but to say that it was on a hub style dyno and they do read a lot differently to the more conventional style dyno's. The variables are endless and i'm not going into the whole dyno debate or whether this was done or that was done but to say that of all the systems sold and fitted all have made a substantial difference to the Stivo's performance and I consider it to be money well spent.

The only 2 Stivo's to run 14 sec quarters both have CES systems fitted!!!

[Azza]

I don't know a great deal about Dyno's, but I do know that they will act like any other peice of mechanical equipment, and one key work comes to mind...

CONSISTENCY

I think the idea is, and my reading of tons of different opinions on Dyno's from this forum alone, is that each Dyno will read differently. Correct me if I am wrong in thinking that I have actually read about one car using two separate Dyno's on the same day with no difference in mods or climatic conditions and actually getting two separate readings...

I think, in my total un-dyno-educated opinion, the secret is to use the same machine, kinda like weighing yourself....

If Trev's Dyno at CES said a certain reading before the fitting of the system, and then read a 1kw reading after, then I would be doubting the quality of the system.

I would assume that most Dyno's had a variance of +/- 5kw (which I think would almost be a reasonble estimate) then the machine at CES may reflect an inaccurate reading after the fitment of the exhaust.

Example:

Lets say that gravityfreak's Sportivo had a reading of 101kw ATW pre-exhaust, on the Dyno at his local shop.

Let's then hypothesise that this machine has given an inaccurate reading of +3kw ATW (ie his real power is 98kw ATW)...

Then the CES gets fitted...

Now we Dyno the car at CES after the fitting of the exhaust, and Trev's Dyno is reading -5kw ATW at the moment, and indicates the max power at 102kw ATW (where the car is possibly producing 107kw ATW).

This to me can indicate a 9kw ATW gain where the appearance of 1kw is given.

My point is this, maybe you should have had the same Dyno measure the car before and after the fitment (like same day) and utilise a more modern style Dyno....

Like I said, I am no Dyno expert, but it seems common sense to me...

I have sat in and driven Danthuyer's car, I have no issues with the note/drone...

I have also travelled in Silvabullits car, I have no issues with the note/drone...

I have listened to Sportivo_Rice's car and I can honestly say that it sounds sweet...

I even got to hear Screaminrolla's car when he drove up here to get it, and it too sounded great.

The only thing between me and a CES of my own, is my wife's control over the bank account...(maybe I will have to wait for Craig to drive to hard over a bump and watch his fall off and claim it for myself :P )..

Thats my rant..

Cheers

Aaron

[Screaminrolla]

The only 2 Stivo's to run 14 sec quarters both have CES systems fitted!!!

←

I didnt have the CES system fitted when i did the 14.9 :P

[Danthuyer]

The only 2 Stivo's to run 14 sec quarters both have CES systems fitted!!!

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I didnt have the CES system fitted when i did the 14.9 :P

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Oh well...looks like <14.7 then hey dave ;)

[SILVABULLIT]

Hey Dave you'll probably go quicker then eh?

[lucio_libre]

Imek has gone faster than that on a stock T-Sport :) ..just thought i'd throw a spanner into the works.

So Gravityfreak.I take it you dont want to sell your exshaust system anymore??? :)

[gravityfreak]

Imek has gone faster than that on a stock T-Sport :) ..just thought i'd throw a spanner into the works.

So Gravityfreak.I take it you dont want to sell your exshaust system anymore??? :)

←

The following comments are particularly aimed at Silverbullit who'se unending praise for the the CES system and refusal to accept criticism is suspicious:

The exhaust drones. The degree to which this bothers you is subjective but the fact that it does is not. Danthuyer himself admits that it drones. While not impossible, I have yet to hear a car with a free flow system that does not drone. What I take exception to is your telling people it doesn't. It does. This is not a criticism of the CES system, just a fact. Power a noise go hand in hand.

You state that you car gained 9kw. Well done, I am delighted for you. But, you make out that that is the norm for the gains for this system. It is not. Everyone besides you has gained onoly 5-6kw besides myself who gained one untill I fitted the CAI. If I dyno'd now I have no doubt the pipe would contribute a further 4-5kw.

The dyno which my car was dynod on reads higher than a roller dyno which I accept. Regardless of whether you accept the baseline reading or not - it is consistant and for measuring gains - that is what counts. This dyno is used by a tuner who specialises in Supercharging BMW M5's, tuning M3's and does a lot of work in Sydney for Porsche. The dyno is a chasis dyno and is less than 3 years old. So to assume that this dyno is innaccurate is rediculous. You put your faith in an old Bosch dyno in a exhaust pipe shop. As a measurement tool for measuring gains, the dynapak chasis dyno works. It reflected a gain of 1kw with the CES system.

Regardless of the results of the dyno as described above - I didn't need a dyno test to tell me that it made no difference (before the fitment of the CAI). The car felt no better - in fact it felt worse. I know my car well enough to not require a dyno to tell me if something has improved performance or not.

With fitment issues sorted and having got used to the drone, I am finally delighted with the end result such that inspite have had a few good offers to buy it from me - I will be keeping it on the car. Lucio - sorry mate but I am enjoying it. WIll let you know when if it is up for sale again.

Finally, I feel that this forum shoud be one where products are tried, tested and rated honestly for the benefit of all members. I take exception to anyone pushing a product and stating attributes which are not true or replicated consistantly.

[MR22ZZ]

Here Here....

This is the exact reason why I'm intending looking at the Simota CAI with ITG pod, no one has tested it properly yet, ie dyno graphs, and as it is only ~$200 I don't mind going to the AEM CAI if I'm not 100% happy as the price will still be comparible to the TRD one at the end of the day and that is what I originally budgeted for. Doctony I believe is doing the same with the AEM CAI so at the end of this we can look at the graphs for the 3 CAI and people can make their own decisions.

What I would like to know is those people out there with alternatives to the CES exhaust, could you please post some results, so we can make similar comparisons for exhaust 'upgrades'.

But I stress that if this happens people have to be open-minded about the results and allow people to make their own choices at the end of the day. Don't simply go flaming other peoples results in order to defend your product choice, at the end of the day if the customer (you) are happy with the result that is all that matters.

Cheers Guys and Gals

That's my peace keeping effort for the day...

next stop NATO...

Dylan

Edited May 26, 2005 by Blue_Stivo

[Azza]

QUESTION:

Do any Queensland Sportivo owners have a CES with NO OTHER MODS ie, not even a CAI or headers...???

IF SO:

Then my Sportivo will be at the Dyno Day at CES on 4th June for a dyno reading.

I wish to then compare my NON-CES car with a CES car, with no other mods....

This will give us an idea of the increase with a CES

Cheers

Aaron

[Doctony]

or has anybody dyno thier cars with the exhausts from other companies? e.g. kakimoto (only $800) - i was told once that they have one for the stivo. i was trying to mail the company in japan directly but could not find the e-mail address on thier official web site.

basically what other options do we have here? and what's the gain for each option? that's what i'm interested.

[MR22ZZ]

ditto

Azza - this will not help other then a very little bit as not all cars are built equal, esp those coming out of South Africa, needs to be same car, same conditions, same Dyno, but if we can't have that then I guess every little bit helps... :)

Edited May 26, 2005 by Blue_Stivo

[shaohaok]

or has anybody dyno thier cars with the exhausts from other companies? e.g. kakimoto (only $800) - i was told once that they have one for the stivo. i was trying to mail the company in japan directly but could not find the e-mail address on thier official web site.

basically what other options do we have here? and what's the gain for each option? that's what i'm interested.

←

info@kakimotoracing.co.jp

the part number for the exhaust is Kakimoto.R series (TS366) - oval silencer type

5zigen also make one for the zze123

Under the LAX Touring Series part number LAT-041 (ZZE123)

Centrax (Australia Sole Endless and Zeal Distributor) in Brisbane has one of the above in stock going for about 1100.

LAT-048 is the 5zigen pipe for the zze122 but strangely the pipe diameter is the same as the ones for the zze123 so i suspect they are the same parts.

[Doctony]

ok, man, i will mail them tomorrow and once they reply me, i will post it on the board.

[SILVABULLIT]

Imek has gone faster than that on a stock T-Sport :) ..just thought i'd throw a spanner into the works.

So Gravityfreak.I take it you dont want to sell your exshaust system anymore??? :)

←

The following comments are particularly aimed at Silverbullit who'se unending praise for the the CES system and refusal to accept criticism is suspicious:

The exhaust drones. The degree to which this bothers you is subjective but the fact that it does is not. Danthuyer himself admits that it drones. While not impossible, I have yet to hear a car with a free flow system that does not drone. What I take exception to is your telling people it doesn't. It does. This is not a criticism of the CES system, just a fact. Power a noise go hand in hand.

You state that you car gained 9kw. Well done, I am delighted for you. But, you make out that that is the norm for the gains for this system. It is not. Everyone besides you has gained onoly 5-6kw besides myself who gained one untill I fitted the CAI. If I dyno'd now I have no doubt the pipe would contribute a further 4-5kw.

The dyno which my car was dynod on reads higher than a roller dyno which I accept. Regardless of whether you accept the baseline reading or not - it is consistant and for measuring gains - that is what counts. This dyno is used by a tuner who specialises in Supercharging BMW M5's, tuning M3's and does a lot of work in Sydney for Porsche. The dyno is a chasis dyno and is less than 3 years old. So to assume that this dyno is innaccurate is rediculous. You put your faith in an old Bosch dyno in a exhaust pipe shop. As a measurement tool for measuring gains, the dynapak chasis dyno works. It reflected a gain of 1kw with the CES system.

Regardless of the results of the dyno as described above - I didn't need a dyno test to tell me that it made no difference (before the fitment of the CAI). The car felt no better - in fact it felt worse. I know my car well enough to not require a dyno to tell me if something has improved performance or not.

With fitment issues sorted and having got used to the drone, I am finally delighted with the end result such that inspite have had a few good offers to buy it from me - I will be keeping it on the car. Lucio - sorry mate but I am enjoying it. WIll let you know when if it is up for sale again.

Finally, I feel that this forum shoud be one where products are tried, tested and rated honestly for the benefit of all members. I take exception to anyone pushing a product and stating attributes which are not true or replicated consistantly.

←

Man I'm not going to argue with you about the issues you have with the system. In fact if you seem to be more on the negative side so then you should have just sold it. If you would learn to read then YOU would have seen that I commented on this droning issue. Everybody has a personal preference and a different idea of what a droning exhaust system is. I have driven many many cars in my time and I can tell you that if you think that the CES system drones enough to be a problem then get in a Lancer with a Supercheap cannon on the back and you'll know what droning is!! AGAIN I REMEMBER SAYING IT'S A PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

As for the rattling on the heat shield I don't recall bagging you but again said it was to do with the system moving on the rear mounts. As far as your complaint about losing power I've seen your dyno sheet and have spent hours comparing dyno sheets between the dyno's I have done(at 2 different locations with a difference of exactly 2kw atw) as well as comparing Danthuyer's sheets and dyno graphs from the last dyno day to say that your graph has some extremely unusual points and figures on it that make no sense to myself or CES. We told you to go and do a run on a dyno dynamics dyno so we could compare on a level playing field. You didn't do that neither did you respond to us when we sent you an email about your claimed loss of power. What more can we do??

Your quote about power gains is also irrelevant. So far my car was the only one(apart from yours) that didn't already have extractors, TRD CAI, unichip or some other form of modification done to it. So therefore the gains on a car with one or any of these mods would be less? True? Man you should really read the information that's on your screen before you start attacking people and totally slandering their character.

If this system is such a burden and a pain to you then for goodness sake sell it to another keen member of this forum who'll fit it to their car and enjoy the benefits.

I've heard reports and it is known that somebody in Sydney copied this system and did make a reasonable gain BUT can't stop it from droning and being quite excessive in the noise department. CES passes legal noise DB levels also.

Standard cars make little noise and modified cars make some noise. Decide whether you want one or the other.

PS. What else did you do to your Stivo to get a peak of some 620nm of torque??

[Azza]

ditto

Azza - this will not help other then a very little bit as not all cars are built equal, esp those coming out of South Africa, needs to be same car, same conditions, same Dyno, but if we can't have that then I guess every little bit helps... :)

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Hey Blue....

My idea is that if there are 2 Sportivos with exactly the same modification level, ie NOTHING, then the difference of the CES on a Sportivo will be truely displayed on Dyno Day. That is, my car is 100% stock, and will have no mods except for my dashmat, e-toll and I should have my window tint by then... :P

If there is a Sportivo with NO MODS but the CES, then my aim is then to use the runs done by both of us as a good example of what the gains are with the system.

If this gets done, and the is f***all gain, then I will eat my words and admit that perhaps the CES may not be the best system without other mods to 'SYNERGISE' (you like that Danz :) ) with it.

If it works, then I will use this as a toll, not only for CES' benifit, but also that of everyone else to proove that there is a noticable gain with the CES.

All good mate :)

or has anybody dyno thier cars with the exhausts from other companies? e.g. kakimoto (only $800) - i was told once that they have one for the stivo. i was trying to mail the company in japan directly but could not find the e-mail address on thier official web site.

basically what other options do we have here? and what's the gain for each option? that's what i'm interested.

←

info@kakimotoracing.co.jp

the part number for the exhaust is Kakimoto.R series (TS366) - oval silencer type

5zigen also make one for the zze123

Under the LAX Touring Series part number LAT-041 (ZZE123)

Centrax (Australia Sole Endless and Zeal Distributor) in Brisbane has one of the above in stock going for about 1100.

LAT-048 is the 5zigen pipe for the zze122 but strangely the pipe diameter is the same as the ones for the zze123 so i suspect they are the same parts.

←

Shao, do you like, sit on the internet all day or something and look this s**t up... :P :P :P

Wealth of Knowlege my friend....

[MR22ZZ]

Hey Blue....

My idea is that if there are 2 Sportivos with exactly the same modification level, ie NOTHING, then the difference of the CES on a Sportivo will be truely displayed on Dyno Day.  That is, my car is 100% stock, and will have no mods except for my dashmat, e-toll and I should have my window tint by then... :P

If there is a Sportivo with NO MODS but the CES, then my aim is then to use the runs done by both of us as a good example of what the gains are with the system.

If this gets done, and the is f***all gain, then I will eat my words and admit that perhaps the CES may not be the best system without other mods to 'SYNERGISE' (you like that Danz :) ) with it.

If it works, then I will use this as a toll, not only for CES' benifit, but also that of everyone else to proove that there is a noticable gain with the CES.

All good mate :)

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Cheers for that Azza, it will be interesting to see the difference between the 2 stock stivos too, it makes some more sense, but I still believe will not give you a 100% definative answer, this will require you to get 5 stock cars, run them all stock, fit the exhaust then run them again, then you can find an average increase due to the exhaust only... But your plan looks good with the resources you are given... :D

[sportiv]

Did Trevor at CES even fit this to your car????

if he didn't fit it.. and you got some random dude to fit it, trevor is not going to give 2 ****s.. he makes the system and fits it and when he does everyone gets a gain..

[gravityfreak]

Did Trevor at CES even fit this to your car????

if he didn't fit it.. and you got some random dude to fit it, trevor is not going to give 2 ****s.. he makes the system and fits it and when he does everyone gets a gain..

←

No he didn't fit it. Don't you think that if he cannot guarantee gains unless he fits it, and he is unable to fit it, he should not sell it?

[Red_CT9A]

gravity freak = b4 - unhappy bout system.........after - happy bout system

this topic = closed!

nothing left to say .... so don't be turning this thread into more of a sh17 fight...

there is also no need to be blaming n e 1 ......