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Posted

I'd like to embark on one more project before I get the Aurion back on the road and seek some help from other clued up individuals here. Basically my goal is to finally figure out a means to be able to switch of the blastard traction control on the Aurion. Everyone has there own reasons for wanting to do so and if you're not one of them I'd appreciate if you didn't post saying so, I'd like to keep this thread as informative as possible and reduce the clutter.

I've already chatted briefly to DJKOR about this previously, and in conjunction with that I have considered several methods all of which have pros and cons as listed below

1) Switchable TCS fuse (disconnects TCS fuse circuit in simple circuit connected to a switch)

Pros - Very easy to wire up

Cons - Could create error code. Unlikely to be able to switch back on without restarting vehicle. If switched off whilst driving or TCS in action may cause damage to circuits/ECU/other components.

2) Connect rear speed sensors to front speed sensor inputs at flick of a switch.

Pros - Nil error codes. Switchable on the fly

Cons - Switching circuit needs to be quick (less than 0.05 seconds) to avoid error code. Additional wiring must have minimal effect on line resistance. Possible logic issue at ECU end due to other inputs that may be at odds with the new speed sensor signal (engine revs and gear but no apparent road speed)

3) Logic circuit that does the handbrake/foot brake sequence digitally so it's fast and easy to do at the push of a button.

Pros - The ECU disables TCS so no ill effects or error codes.

Cons - Requires basic logic circuit with multiple outputs. Can't be switched back on without restarting car. May not work whilst vehicle is in motion.

4) Genuine TCS switch wired up to ECU

Pros - Disable TCS as the factory intended (or at least made plans to, but never wired up)

Cons - Assumes such a ECU output/input exists for a switch to be wired to.

I'm not 100% sure on this but don't the new US V6 Camrys have such a switch from factory? If so then it's possible that if that switch was wired up to our ECU in a similar manner it may function. However at this time I've poured all over the 2007-2009 v6 Camry factory manuals and haven't found any mention of such a switch or functionality.

Of the above, unless 4 proves ultimately fruitless then I'm inclined to have a go at option 2, which I'll detail in this thread unless anyone else can figure out other ways of disabling TCS on the fly

Posted

Not too be picky, but it's actually, "Connect front sensors to rear sensors" :lol:.

But yeah Steven. As we discussed, number 2 should work fine I reckon. I personally think that there would be no need to worry about switching speed as well because by the speed that a switch can change contacts, I bet the ECU wouldn't even tell. And as long as you change it while stationary, it would all tie in perfectly.

The cat is now out of the bag. Now to see how long till someone else does it. Apart from you and I.

Posted

Not too be picky, but it's actually, "Connect front sensors to rear sensors" :lol:.

But yeah Steven. As we discussed, number 2 should work fine I reckon. I personally think that there would be no need to worry about switching speed as well because by the speed that a switch can change contacts, I bet the ECU wouldn't even tell. And as long as you change it while stationary, it would all tie in perfectly.

The cat is now out of the bag. Now to see how long till someone else does it. Apart from you and I.

We may as well let the cat out as it's a good idea and neither have of us have actually gotten around to trying it yet.

I thought option 2 was connecting the rear speed sensors, to the ECU inputs for the front wheel sensors so that even if the front wheels were spinning the ECU would think they weren't?

Posted

Oh god this could end bad :P My only issue with the sensor swapping would be that the dash indicator would not illuminate, you might think pfft who cares, but what happens if you forget that it has been switched and you wind up "punching" it and have an accident?


Posted

Oh god this could end bad :P My only issue with the sensor swapping would be that the dash indicator would not illuminate, you might think pfft who cares, but what happens if you forget that it has been switched and you wind up "punching" it and have an accident?

Yeah I had been considering that - the basic circuit I've worked out makes it so that the "switch" will illuminate whenever traction control is ON, and also will default to ON every time the car is started. You will have to manually turn it off every time. Still trying to figure out a way to get some more visible warning on the cluster.

Posted

We may as well let the cat out as it's a good idea and neither have of us have actually gotten around to trying it yet.

I thought option 2 was connecting the rear speed sensors, to the ECU inputs for the front wheel sensors so that even if the front wheels were spinning the ECU would think they weren't?

Actually, now that I look at it, I see how both arguments can be said. It's like that left/right brain teaser questions.

Basically, the better way to say it for easier understanding is like you corrected then. Parallel the front sensor input on the ECU to the rear speed sensors.

If you want the failsafe, use a latching relay design that utilises power from the ignition. That way when you turn the car off, it will cut the relay latching mechanism.

I think I have a quiet weekend and am really tempted to try this out to see if our theory would work.

Edit: Other thing I am concerned about is how sensitive the ECU is. Remember my story some time ago? That said though, the time spend with TC off would be small in the grand scale of things, so you wouldn't think it would trip anything.

Edit 2: Like you mentioned, I am also starting to wonder though how it will treat the resistance when it is paralleled up seeing that the ECU can throw a code when "Abnormality in the resistance value of each speed sensor is detected."

I guess the only way to know is to find out first hand.

Shame it won't fix the axle tramp.

Posted

On the note of resistance, the Skid Control ECU is expecting the following from the sensors.

Front: 0.92 to 1.22 kΩ

Rear: Below 2.2 kΩ

Only thing I can imagine here is if the rear sensors have a resistance of below 2.2k, but above 1.22k. When these get connected to the front, then the ECU will pick that up I would imagine.

I guess there is no harm in trying though. The ECU can always be reset.

Posted

Why have you guys dismissed the 3rd option? (Logic circuit for brake/park combo)

I would have thought this would have been the most sensible solution. Playing with sensors sounds risky, and if you screw up any of them you will have to turn TCS off the correct way to drive it to Toyota.

Posted

Why have you guys dismissed the 3rd option? (Logic circuit for brake/park combo)

I would have thought this would have been the most sensible solution. Playing with sensors sounds risky, and if you screw up any of them you will have to turn TCS off the correct way to drive it to Toyota.

It is definitely the option that carries the less risk, however is far more complicated to wire up and would require someone knowledgeable with micro-controllers etc. It also carries less on-the-fly flexibility than option 2.

I've been reading over the factory manual time and again and it seems it's very difficult to cause damage to the ECU, neigh on impossible, simply by messing around with the sensor inputs. It's got so many logic safeguards that if it doesn't like what it sees it simply disables that function and logs an error code. I'd only be concerned if I was adding a new Earth or power source to a sensor line.

As for the resistance issue, ideally if the rear sensor resistance was in the same range as the fronts then there would be no problem. I can only assume the accepted value is higher for the rear due to the longer wiring between the sensor and the ECU. To combat this, would it be possible to LOWER the line resistance by way of the simple circuit I've drawn below? As the signal is a pulse I can't see it being effected by this... maybe?

The only other way I can think of is to double the wiring to the rear sensors, to drop the line resistance. I'm a bit confused myself so I've included both below if someone smarter and more awake than I am right now could comment?

post-13080-0-03620700-1294267869_thumb.j

Posted

The ECU is expecting kOhms of resistance. The resistance of the wiring to the sensor should pretty much be negligible in this case as you will find that it's always usually less than an Ohm... even over great distance used in the car.

One issue I can possibly imagine with the paralleling of resistance to ground is that if the ECU expects to the see the sensor as completely isolated to ground, then it may want to throw a code when it sees said continuity.

I guess I should say it's about time to just see what happens. We COULD theorise all day on this, but there is only one real way to find out. We have spent long enough thinking about it so it looks like this weekend may be interesting.

And Jeff, I did consider a logic circuit myself, but thought it would be quite pointless because:

1) The pedal procedure is quite quick to do and,

2) Not much use when you can't turn it back on without restarting the car.

Posted

No worries.

You guys have guts... really.... A lot of people wouldn't be bothered or have the gonads to try.

Posted

I've tracked down the wiring to the skid control ECU in the engine bay, only thing that's stopping me right now is a lack of wires/relays etc. Plus it seems as though Toyota used the same color wiring for different components at the same plug so I'll have to remove the wheels and use a multimeter to tell each sensor's wiring apart at the ecu end.

The biggest issue though with me is that I can only test the completed circuit for error codes etc. I can't actually test its function on the street :(

Posted

I've tracked down the wiring to the skid control ECU in the engine bay, only thing that's stopping me right now is a lack of wires/relays etc. Plus it seems as though Toyota used the same color wiring for different components at the same plug so I'll have to remove the wheels and use a multimeter to tell each sensor's wiring apart at the ecu end.

The biggest issue though with me is that I can only test the completed circuit for error codes etc. I can't actually test its function on the street :(

I'm going to tap into the rear sensors at the front drivers and passenger side kick panels. The wiring for the rear sensors comes in behind the ends of the rear seats (through the wheel arch), into the car, and then runs down each side trim. For the front, I will tap into it where it enters the engine bay.

Reason for this is that it gives me more room to correct any faults should something go wrong. Last thing I want to do is screw the wiring harness up close to the ECU plug.

Posted

Sorry if I missed something, but are you connecting the left rear to the left front ect or both rear to the front wheel with all the drive?

Posted

Sorry if I missed something, but are you connecting the left rear to the left front ect or both rear to the front wheel with all the drive?

When "switched on", the front speed sensors are disconnected and the ECU input is connected to the rear sensors. One for one. So on the ECU, the FR and RR input gets it's signal from the RR sensor, and the FL and RL input gets it's signal from the RL sensor. In theory, one sensor should have enough of an AC output to drive both inputs, but once again, it can only be determined by trying.

Edit: Okay, so after some drafting up of my ideas, I have come to a list of parts I will need. I will probably test it first though before getting the bits and pieces just in case it doesn't work in the first place. My parts list is as follows:

- 2 x DPDT relays (one for left side, one for right side)

- 1 x SPST relay (for latching circuit)

- 1 x NO illuminated push button (to disable TC/turn on latching relay, and indicate status)

- 1 x NC push button (to enable TC/turn off latching relay)

I have a crappy hand drawn diagram which isn't ready for upload, but basically this is the idea. There will be a 'TC off' and a 'TC on' button. Pressing the 'TC off' button will energise the relays, disable TC, and illuminate the button to indicate TC is disabled. Pressing the 'TC on' button will de-energise the relays, enable TC, and turn off the push button light to indicate TC is on. TC will automatically be enabled when the car is turned off or if any one of the three relays fail.

Posted

Sorry if I missed something, but are you connecting the left rear to the left front ect or both rear to the front wheel with all the drive?

When "switched on", the front speed sensors are disconnected and the ECU input is connected to the rear sensors. One for one. So on the ECU, the FR and RR input gets it's signal from the RR sensor, and the FL and RL input gets it's signal from the RL sensor. In theory, one sensor should have enough of an AC output to drive both inputs, but once again, it can only be determined by trying.

Daryl just wondering are you going to first temporarily wire up the front sensor inputs to the rear sensors themselves without a switching circuit just to make sure the ECU accepts those different signals before going through the effort of wiring in a switch etc?

I was going to do that myself today as I don't have the needed relays/switches yet, however I can't actually take the car onto the road to see if it will now spin the front wheels without activating the TCS.

Posted

Daryl just wondering are you going to first temporarily wire up the front sensor inputs to the rear sensors themselves without a switching circuit just to make sure the ECU accepts those different signals before going through the effort of wiring in a switch etc?

As mentioned:

.... I will probably test it first though before getting the bits and pieces just in case it doesn't work in the first place. My parts list is as follows:

The only thing is, if I do it that way, it's more stuffing around. I like to do things once, so it would be nice to get it all done in one go. But then if it didn't work, I'd be stuck with what I've done.

First things first though, I will measure the resistance of the front and rear sensors to predict which way the outcome will sway towards.

Edit: The funny thing is, despite how simple it would be to do it all (I'd give myself an hour since I like to bum around/have a beer/etc), part of me still can't be bothered to do this. I guess in a way, I just don't feel the need for it. I only want to do it to see if it can actually work.

Posted

And so it begins:

di-1129445037914.jpg

I was originally intending on wiring it up by extending the front sensor wiring into the cabin and having the relay pack there. I then figured that I want to minimise excess wiring where not required, so I bit the bullet and am now at the harness side. I thought the ABS actuator harness was actually going to be quite 'busy' in there, but surprisingly there aren't as many wires there as I was expecting.

I'm just going to do some resistance measurements and if it satisfies me, it's time for some cutting and soldering.

Edit: Okay, as expected, the US Camry service manual/wiring diagram is half correct. They got the colours for the wires all correct, but the pin layout is different. The following are my findings.

FL+ : Light Blue, Pin 5

FL- : Violet, Pin 6

FR+ : Pink, Pin 10

FR- : Light Blue, Pin 9

RL+ : Red, Pin 7

RL- : Light Blue, Pin 27

RR+ : Black, Pin 29

RR- : White, Pin 8

Resistance values are as follows (for my car obviously):

FL : 1.713kΩ

FR : 1.715kΩ

RL : 1.210kΩ

RR : 1.225kΩ

Now, since the ECU is expecting to see a resistance reading of 0.92 to 1.22 kΩ on the front sensors, connecting the rear to the front is going to obviously provide a different reading. Part of me thinks though that the ECU will only test for this at engine start during it's self test. In that case, a switch feature for this should be fine because you can have the rears connected when you start the car.

But that said, if the ECU tests it at some point during driving, then there may be a problem. I'm thinking then that maybe paralleling some resistance with the rear sensors when they are connected to the front may do the trick, but then I'm not sure how it will affect the speed readings.

I think I will sit down and do some more thdrinking.

Edit 2: HOLD ON A SECOND. I just looked at my resistance figures again. The readings I have are definitely for the right sensors. The original standard parameters are:

Front: 0.92 to 1.22 kΩ

Rear: Below 2.2 kΩ

So that means the sensors are already out of the spec of the (US) manual and comply with what I'm planning on doing. WIN... I hope. But then again, the Australian spec could just be reversed. But then that is still a win you would imagine. But you have to wonder why the sensors have two distinct values though.

Edit 3: Damn it, I need to be somewhere at 2pm now. Looks like I will have to put this one on hold till the evening or Sunday. I need time to make sure it is all neatly done seeing that I am messing with some sensors here responsible for the ABS as well.

Posted

And so it begins:

di-1129445037914.jpg

I was originally intending on wiring it up by extending the front sensor wiring into the cabin and having the relay pack there. I then figured that I want to minimise excess wiring where not required, so I bit the bullet and am now at the harness side. I thought the ABS actuator harness was actually going to be quite 'busy' in there, but surprisingly there aren't as many wires there as I was expecting.

I'm just going to do some resistance measurements and if it satisfies me, it's time for some cutting and soldering.

Edit: Okay, as expected, the US Camry service manual/wiring diagram is half correct. They got the colours for the wires all correct, but the pin layout is different. The following are my findings.

FL+ : Light Blue, Pin 5

FL- : Violet, Pin 6

FR+ : Pink, Pin 10

FR- : Light Blue, Pin 9

RL+ : Red, Pin 7

RL- : Light Blue, Pin 27

RR+ : Black, Pin 29

RR- : White, Pin 8

Resistance values are as follows (for my car obviously):

FL : 1.713kΩ

FR : 1.715kΩ

RL : 1.210kΩ

RR : 1.225kΩ

Now, since the ECU is expecting to see a resistance reading of 0.92 to 1.22 kΩ on the front sensors, connecting the rear to the front is going to obviously provide a different reading. Part of me thinks though that the ECU will only test for this at engine start during it's self test. In that case, a switch feature for this should be fine because you can have the rears connected when you start the car.

But that said, if the ECU tests it at some point during driving, then there may be a problem. I'm thinking then that maybe paralleling some resistance with the rear sensors when they are connected to the front may do the trick, but then I'm not sure how it will affect the speed readings.

I think I will sit down and do some more thdrinking.

Edit 2: HOLD ON A SECOND. I just looked at my resistance figures again. The readings I have are definitely for the right sensors. The original standard parameters are:

Front: 0.92 to 1.22 kΩ

Rear: Below 2.2 kΩ

So that means the sensors are already out of the spec of the (US) manual and comply with what I'm planning on doing. WIN... I hope. But then again, the Australian spec could just be reversed. But then that is still a win you would imagine. But you have to wonder why the sensors have two distinct values though.

Edit 3: Damn it, I need to be somewhere at 2pm now. Looks like I will have to put this one on hold till the evening or Sunday. I need time to make sure it is all neatly done seeing that I am messing with some sensors here responsible for the ABS as well.

Excellent, so now we know the sensor values are different, indeed actually preferable to what we want to do. I do agree it's odd that the range is different to what the manual specifies - it would seem to suggest that it's always out of range and the ECU doesn't care. Either way it's good for us.

Now we can only hope by piggybacking the sensor inputs we can the desired result - as much wheel spin as possible.

If this works I was thinking of drawing up and making a proper PCB with soldered relays etc (small, solid state ones = immediate switching, no noise and hopefully reliability) and also a small footprint that can hang off the skid control ECU without looking like ****. The software is readily available after all.

Reckon you'll have a result by tomorrow Daryl?

Posted

Reckon you'll have a result by tomorrow Daryl?

How about now?

ZOMG!@!!@!@! Excitement. The theory stands correct. After picking up some relays, switches etc (because I was confident), I took the wiring harness off again and got to work. Firstly I have just ran a metre or so of cable from the ECU plug so it will be ready for a permanent setup, but I wanted to be absolutely sure so just connected the rears to the front input to try it out.

Started the car... no CEL. Good. Drove carefully down the street.... no CEL. Good.

Ripped a skid out the street... no CEL, no flashing TC light, no interruptions, big grin on face. Good.

Drove on the highway for about 20km to make sure it is fine... still no CEL. Good.

Headed back towards home... huge rain storm. Good. Detoured through to an industrial estate to take advantage of the fresh liquid horsepower.

Spun the wheels all over the shop and went for a little bit of sliding... no CEL. Very good.

End verdict. This is a plausible solution. Definitely not a task for the faint hearted though. There is not much slack on the ABS ECU wiring harness and it is a real prick to try to work with. Even with my small hands, I dread having to open the connector again to tidy it up.

But all in all, In an hour or two, I will have a TC off button on my Aurion.

I have noticed 2 side effects however:

1) Speedo is actually more accurate now. Quite good actually. Before at 100km/h, GPS would say 92km/h. Now it says 97km/h.

2) It's addictive.

Posted

Reckon you'll have a result by tomorrow Daryl?

How about now?

ZOMG!@!!@!@! Excitement. The theory stands correct. After picking up some relays, switches etc (because I was confident), I took the wiring harness off again and got to work. Firstly I have just ran a metre or so of cable from the ECU plug so it will be ready for a permanent setup, but I wanted to be absolutely sure so just connected the rears to the front input to try it out.

Started the car... no CEL. Good. Drove carefully down the street.... no CEL. Good.

Ripped a skid out the street... no CEL, no flashing TC light, no interruptions, big grin on face. Good.

Drove on the highway for about 20km to make sure it is fine... still no CEL. Good.

Headed back towards home... huge rain storm. Good. Detoured through to an industrial estate to take advantage of the fresh liquid horsepower.

Spun the wheels all over the shop and went for a little bit of sliding... no CEL. Very good.

End verdict. This is a plausible solution. Definitely not a task for the faint hearted though. There is not much slack on the ABS ECU wiring harness and it is a real prick to try to work with. Even with my small hands, I dread having to open the connector again to tidy it up.

But all in all, In an hour or two, I will have a TC off button on my Aurion.

I have noticed 2 side effects however:

1) Speedo is actually more accurate now. Quite good actually. Before at 100km/h, GPS would say 92km/h. Now it says 97km/h.

2) It's addictive.

I can't believe this hasn't been tried before (to our knowledge). Congrats Daryl, this mod will be a hit with the Yanks I'll bet too!

I'm still waiting on my genuine TCS switch to arrive in the mail, I need to find out whether it is a momentary or an on/off type switch before I decide on what wiring design to go with. I know how you mean with the wiring harness though, thanks to those brake lines it's a real ***** to work with.

Still very excited now! I wonder if your speedo reading more accurate off the back wheels has something to do with tyre wear?

Posted

A quick update... I am getting so so close to giving up on this damn relay pack. As well, my confidence in the longevity of this setup isn't overly that high.

I think I am going to make a trip to the office and pick up some more cable so I can run it into the cabin and locate the relay pack there. I just don't trust it in the engine bay. Otherwise, time to just revert it back to stock. At least you guys now know it's possible and can be done if you have the patience. My suggestion though would be to avoid working close to the ABS actuator as it really limits how much you can do easily.

Damn ABS actuator and all the brake hard lines coming off it.

Edit: Okay then. I have kinda given up on the project. Mainly because I am over it for now, plus I have stuff to prepare for work. Basically I had planned to create a relay pack and mount it on the front end of the ABS actuator. Then I would run control lines from there into the cabin where I can supply the power and switching to the relay pack. Doing it this way however leaves you with limited space to do it in. It can be done, but I get frustrated easily. In addition to that running all 12 wires off the existing ABS ECU harness (via 2 stranded Cat5e cables which are perfect for the job) meant that it was a little bulky on the rear end of the harness which I personally don't like. So the new plan is as follows.

At the moment, I have neatly tied everything off so it can wait till another weekend. In the meantime though, this means I have no traction control, VSC, and even worse... ABS. I just have to remember that when I go for a drive.

Then what I will do is remove the parallel connection to the rear speed sensors from the harness meaning that I only need to connect 8 wires to the ECU harness... perfect for one run of Cat5e. Then I will run a single run of stranded Cat5e from the drivers side dash up to the ABS ECU and connect it up to the appropriate inputs. Then I will parallel the rear speed sensors from the wiring behind the dash (before it goes through the firewall into the engine bay) and then run this up to the drivers side dash. I will then mount the relay pack (without the need to waterproof) behind the dash there somewhere and make all the connections there.

To me, this feels to be the safest option.

Posted

A quick update... I am getting so so close to giving up on this damn relay pack. As well, my confidence in the longevity of this setup isn't overly that high.

I think I am going to make a trip to the office and pick up some more cable so I can run it into the cabin and locate the relay pack there. I just don't trust it in the engine bay. Otherwise, time to just revert it back to stock. At least you guys now know it's possible and can be done if you have the patience. My suggestion though would be to avoid working close to the ABS actuator as it really limits how much you can do easily.

Damn ABS actuator and all the brake hard lines coming off it.

Edit: Okay then. I have kinda given up on the project. Mainly because I am over it for now, plus I have stuff to prepare for work. Basically I had planned to create a relay pack and mount it on the front end of the ABS actuator. Then I would run control lines from there into the cabin where I can supply the power and switching to the relay pack. Doing it this way however leaves you with limited space to do it in. It can be done, but I get frustrated easily. In addition to that running all 12 wires off the existing ABS ECU harness (via 2 stranded Cat5e cables which are perfect for the job) meant that it was a little bulky on the rear end of the harness which I personally don't like. So the new plan is as follows.

At the moment, I have neatly tied everything off so it can wait till another weekend. In the meantime though, this means I have no traction control, VSC, and even worse... ABS. I just have to remember that when I go for a drive.

Then what I will do is remove the parallel connection to the rear speed sensors from the harness meaning that I only need to connect 8 wires to the ECU harness... perfect for one run of Cat5e. Then I will run a single run of stranded Cat5e from the drivers side dash up to the ABS ECU and connect it up to the appropriate inputs. Then I will parallel the rear speed sensors from the wiring behind the dash (before it goes through the firewall into the engine bay) and then run this up to the drivers side dash. I will then mount the relay pack (without the need to waterproof) behind the dash there somewhere and make all the connections there.

To me, this feels to be the safest option.

I was afraid there wouldn't be enough room in the engine bay. I had a quick play with it this morning and marveled at how you got even that little bit done yesterday.

Behind the dash close to a switch seems to be best - I think splicing into the sensors would be best done elsewhere as well. At least we now know this idea is viable so I will be making it a priority whilst the car's off the road, however I feel I will want at least a full day with every component ready to do it properly.

<sigh> so many projects getting sidelined without any getting completed.

Posted

I was afraid there wouldn't be enough room in the engine bay. I had a quick play with it this morning and marveled at how you got even that little bit done yesterday.

Hence my concern about the longevity. Having 12 cut and solder connections close to the harness without the ability to inspect it right in front of my eye doesn't make me feel 100% certain about the quality of the connection. They are a solid connection, however the last thing I want to go wrong is all safety features to be disabled without me knowing, or even worse, a fried ECU. When I do stuff like this, I like to inspect the connection carefully. Not easy to do when I couldn't get the harness to extend very far.

... however I feel I will want at least a full day with every component ready to do it properly.

I'm completely with you on that one. I thought it would have only taken a couple of hours, but I guess I misjudged that one. You mainly need the time so that you can make sure everything is all carefully and neatly done. Unfortunately, my schedule today leaves me with other stuff to be done, so the lack of time available means it is going to look like this in the meantime:

di-1012945377204.jpg

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