CES Header?

[LordWorm]

was just having a look at the CES header trade thread and thought i'd post here instead of there as it's a trade area. anyway, i was wondering why CES went with such short primaries on the header ... they just appear to be way too short for any usuable power band. does anyone know the reason why they are so short???

[CAP]

I think it's to suit their cat-back system that they designed before they developed the headers. No use for them to re-design the entire system just for the headers I guess.

[LordWorm]

that's kind of silly that they make it to suit their cat & back. power is made and lost in the header ... the only purpose of any pipe work after the header is to get gas away from the header. you cant make power after the collector, only lose it. fair enough it would mean cutting their existing cat & back system shorter, but when the header is the most important part of your exhaust system why compromise?

not meaning to have a go at CES - trevor is very knowledgeable and is very good at what he does, but it just absolutely baffles me why he's designed the header this way ... is there any good engineering reason apart from "so it can be used with the CES cat & back"???

[LTS60]

Why dont u ring uncle Trev and ask him lol.

[Red_CT9A]

the CES headers are just the stock stivo headers, ported and HPC coated.

so there was no designing involved

[Northy]

the headders are also 100% swap for stock with no changes needed, also have a look at all the headders for the 2zz-ge, most of them follow the same design including the TRD ones.

[LordWorm]

the headders are also 100% swap for stock with no changes needed, also have a look at all the headders for the 2zz-ge, most of them follow the same design including the TRD ones.

Is this the "custom" header you have Northy, or is it as Wei Wei says, ported stock one?

Just curious thats all. If its a ported stock one it answers alot of questions (though I relly do hope Wei Wei was kidding!)

[Red_CT9A]

haha no kidding here mate

they really are just ported stock ones, with HPC coating

[Northy]

the headders are also 100% swap for stock with no changes needed, also have a look at all the headders for the 2zz-ge, most of them follow the same design including the TRD ones.

Is this the "custom" header you have Northy, or is it as Wei Wei says, ported stock one?

Just curious thats all. If its a ported stock one it answers alot of questions (though I relly do hope Wei Wei was kidding!)

why would you hope he is kidding? there is nothing wrong with the stock ones and there is also very few headders for the 2zz that make more power then the stock ones. So this option is pretty good, some toyota's do get decent parts from the factory unlike some of the other jap cars....

[xoom]

the headders are also 100% swap for stock with no changes needed, also have a look at all the headders for the 2zz-ge, most of them follow the same design including the TRD ones.

Is this the "custom" header you have Northy, or is it as Wei Wei says, ported stock one?

Just curious thats all. If its a ported stock one it answers alot of questions (though I relly do hope Wei Wei was kidding!)

why would you hope he is kidding? there is nothing wrong with the stock ones and there is also very few headders for the 2zz that make more power then the stock ones. So this option is pretty good, some toyota's do get decent parts from the factory unlike some of the other jap cars....

To also re-enforce what corey has said .... here is a list of the available 2zz headers available on the market

http://www.newcelica.org/partscatalog/page...ategory=headers

You will notice the TRD and the trial headers are replicas of the stock ones .... I also own the trd flavour and can tell u it also is from first hand proof is simply the stock ones with ports ported and they are a bit tidier.

The trial headers from the tests ive seen also make the gains seen by the TRD headers.

From the testing ive seen (which mind u was done by a workshop in the US so i have no affiliation with them)on the AMSS and the DC Sport they seem to be down on power & torque compared with the 2 mention above.

I have yet to see any testing on the other .... that being said it appears that if it aint broke there is no need to fix it ... i.e. the toyota stock design must be superb with the likes of Trial and TRD simply copied it but touched up the ports ... this is the true design you should expect to come out of a manufactorer .... if an exhaust shop or a performance arm has to come out and do a total redesign on the headers to get gain then that 2 me says the manufactorer of the vehicle is obviously not interested in performance .....

cheers

Bill

[CHA54]

I'm mildly dissapointed that it's just a ported and coated stock header...

So there was no testing done with different runner lengths/diameters and proper merge collectors like the ones used on real performance NA toyotas? Not the stamped crap used in the stock setup. Testing that disregards the need to be a direct bolt-on replacement. The cat back isn't a direct bolt-on so surely they could have fabbed up a complete new front section and cat to suit and obtain optimal gains???

Edited June 14, 2006 by rollamods

[xoom]

I'm mildly dissapointed that it's just a ported and coated stock header...

So there was no testing done with different runner lengths/diameters and proper merge collectors like the ones used on real performance NA toyotas? Not the stamped crap used in the stock setup.

From my digging around the only company that fiddled with runner lengths and diameters was GT fabrications and i wasnt able to really find a single person that put their hand up and swore by them ....

For the average consumer if large company's such as TRD, Trial etc have not seen the need to put the time and effort into more extensive R&D then that surely does send a message out that there mustn't be much more to be had by fiddling with the other dimensions or it simply isnt worth the time and effort ....

If its the latter which i suspect it is ... then ur average car enthusiast probably simply cant afford to get a shop to make a crap load of different designs n get them tested etc ....

[CHA54]

I thought the price of the CES headers was due to the R&D that went into them...

Some nice toyota headers are made by specialist engine builders, Burns Stainless make exceptional collectors, and Hasselgren make sexual headers ;) They come at a hefty price though.

You can design the headers to deliver power in different area's of the powerband it's always a compromise one way or the other, but if you're spending money for gains you might aswell get the best bang for buck and increases where you want them.

Edited June 14, 2006 by rollamods

[LordWorm]

Ok to clarify I wasnt having a go at CES.

Was just a bit amazed that they didnt build a new one from scratch thats all!

If it works, hey fine.

Bout to go out and put my new engine mounts in, but will reply with a run down of some header design theory a bit later incase people are interested.

[SuperDave]

They could go to the effort of making a race header like this fella. But I don't think he has proved it works yet. And I think it would be a little on the loud side.

Here are most production headers for the 2zz, you will note they all look pretty similar. Weapon-R have a race header. But I don't think any independent dyno's have been done yet.

Edited June 14, 2006 by SuperDave

[CAP]

haha no kidding here mate

they really are just ported stock ones, with HPC coating

:o

[BigBum]

LMAO at rollamods Sig

[Dead]

LMAO at rollamods Sig

LMFAO

Hey man, Pippy's just one of those crazy Ghetto Riders. Meh.

[SILVABULLIT]

I thought the price of the CES headers was due to the R&D that went into them...

Some nice toyota headers are made by specialist engine builders, Burns Stainless make exceptional collectors, and Hasselgren make sexual headers ;) They come at a hefty price though.

You can design the headers to deliver power in different area's of the powerband it's always a compromise one way or the other, but if you're spending money for gains you might aswell get the best bang for buck and increases where you want them.

Most of the price in the CES headers is labour charges to do the modifying and HPC coating. How much do you charge for your knowledge??

CES haven't designed a set of headers with different length primaries and merged collectors etc etc because

A) there are a lot of costs involved in the development and design of such an item as you of all people would know(you are the Toyota guru after all :P )

B) how many people will fork out the money for them(roughly $1500-2000 for still only a handfull of kw's compared to $500 for a handfull of kw's)

C) Companies like CES as you would know will only go to the effort of creating such an item if there would be a guaranteed volume of sales to some degree so they could recoup some of the costs outlayed(smart business principle)

We are not talking about a set of headers for a dime a dozen 4age.(using as an example) The 2zz is simply too new at the moment and until they start to become a little easier to find in importers/wreckers etc and at a reasonable price for people to do a cheap easy transplant like the 4age is in most applications expensive items like a full set of tuned length merged collected headers for the 2zz will prolly be some time away.

Northy had to bite the bullet with the Power FC and be the guinea pig and outlay the money to make it work.

Anybody else want to put their hand up and pay to get a set of tuned length merged collected headers developed in this way......

[CHA54]

I give my toyota knowledge out for free, have done so for many years now ;) If you would like to pay me that would be appreciated :P

I'm sure my turbo manifolds will be copied by other companies when I release the photos etc, I put the time and effort to design the setup, they're not a copy of another companies product... but I'll only be selling 4 sets of manifolds and dumps as thats the number of flange sets we had made ;)

If you use your brains it's not hard to do most of the R&D off the car, so the amount of fabrication time and "off the road" time is very minimal.

[LordWorm]

As far as "R&D" goes..length, and size of primaries is pure maths. There is software that calculates the length of the primaries to produce a given powerfactor at a given RPM

The real R&D problems is just getting equal lengths fitted into the space constraints (which is a *** aweful horrible job granted!)...but its not like a trial and error black art thing... The very very first thing you "know" when you set out on the road of designing a new set of headers, is how long they need to be to develop power at a given RPM. Without that knowledge, you are stumbling around in the dark.

Anyway - as I have said, i wasn't after picking on CES... i've seen trevor's work, i've got friends who run his exhaust's on their cars and swear by them. I was simply asking, if they were designed by him, why so short? but given they were not designed by him, but were instead just modified stock headers, great stuff.

[kelvin33]

Stop trying to explain!! :) you gonna juz make it worse!!