LPG on Aurion

[AndrewC]

Hi Guys

I'm going to get a Aurion Prodigy within a few months. I've heard about LPG for a while and I haven't really thought about it, but since I getting a new car I was wondering if it's worthwhile changing it to LPG?

And if anyone have taken the step in changing to LPG on an Aurion, can they can put up a few pictures of it. I do travel alot and I require boot space for equpiment for work (mainly boxes of stuff)

I've been reading alot of good stuff about it, can anyone tell me the disadvantage of LPG?

Thanks

Andrew

[sinan]

well for starters its good if you wanna save some money on fuel. but the disadvantages are also big. it reduces the life span of your engine. it also reduces a very big and noticable amount of power from the engine output. and it will also loose responsiveness. for example look at the taxi's. when they turn off the engine and want to restart it they have to crank the engine for a while before it starts up. now you need to compare the advantages and disadvantages and decide. but i certaintly woudnt do it. not even to a fuel munching commodore ss

[AndrewC]

Hi Sinan

Thanks for the reply. I thought it would reduce power, I've been reading on the LPG website which claims to increase the power output!! I was wondering where did you get information on reduce life span of an engine? Is it a known thing in the motor industry? I would like to know how much life it actually reduce? (does it half the life of the car?)

Thanks again

Andrew

[sinan]

Hi Sinan

Thanks for the reply. I thought it would reduce power, I've been reading on the LPG website which claims to increase the power output!! I was wondering where did you get information on reduce life span of an engine? Is it a known thing in the motor industry? I would like to know how much life it actually reduce? (does it half the life of the car?)

Thanks again

Andrew

well i cant give you an exact number on how many years it will reduce its like but expect it to reduce. and for the power output were ever your getting your information from its not true. if that was the true case everyone would put gas on there cars. save money and more power. for example look at the police highway petrols. they have there normal BA falcons on gas but for highway patrols they use petrol for more power.

[jonbays]

Why LPG?

What is the attraction? How much do you spend on petrol a year? $3,000, $4,000? How much would a conversion cost?

How much would you pay on LPG a year? $1,000 $2,000? What happens when they add excise tax to LPG?

The economics of it are not favourable unless you do huge miles every year or keep the car for 10 years.

If you want an LPG car buy one. Ford and Holden will gladl take your money.

[AndrewC]

Hi guys

Thanks for the reply sinan. It makes alot of sense. I got my information here:

http://lpgautogas.com.au/index.cfm?action=...=109&Type=R

"Mr Coventry said the system produced a five per cent power improvement over conventional air valve and venturi LPG systems and a 50 per cent reduction in operating costs compared with petrol."

I'm not sure if I read the statement wrong, I had to admit I'm a newbie when it comes to cars.

Jonbays, I'm only curious with LPG because my mate told me to look into it, which I'm doing now, since I'm going to buy a new car for my business. As I explain previously, I do travel alot and require alot of space. Most of the information I have found dates back in 2000 and I wasn't sure if technology has changed within 7 years.

The conversion cost is $4400 and the govt will rebate $1000 since it's factory fitted.

I do not know how much LPG I would be using, though currently I'm spending over $100/week so I guess over $5200/year on petrol.

I understand the govt will add taxes to gas that's in 2015 from memory, why not take advantage of it now? Petrol has taxes put on it, that doesn't stop people using it.

I prefer not to get holden or ford, as I have set my heart on the toyota Aurion.

I mean, if LPG is getting alot attention because it's so great. It would be silly of me not to look into it, wouldn't it?

Andrew

[jonbays]

The Aurion will produce less power on LPG than ULP. You can expect it to produce 10% less peak rear wheel kilowatts. Low quality old style mixer conversion will lose heaps more. Not that this would be a worry with the Aurion with 3.5 litres and plenty of power anyway but the top end power will suffer.

Econmy wise if you spend $100 a week on petrol and average say 12l/100 in the Aurion which you should you would be doing 35,000km a year costing $5,500 in ULP well today at $1.30 a litre and as we know this is going up and up and sometimes down.

With ULP because it has less energy density you will only get maybe 16L/100Km and the same 35,000km will cost $3,000 at an avearge $0.54/L at the moment on average. This too will go up though as taxes will increase to similar levels as petrol.

So in a perfect world payback in an Aurion doing 35,000km a year and doing badly on ULP getting only 12L/100KM versus one on LPG doing well and getting 16L/100Km is around 18months. So you would be even in two years. Of course if you were only doing 17,500km a year then the payback would be 36 months and so on.

All sounds good if you believe you will keep the car for over two years and the resale value remains the same. In some cars (mostly gas guzzling old V8's) the resale will improve but mostly it is worse than a standard car. It will go slower and produce less power but torque may be better and driveablity is 100% due to the competence of the conversion company to match toyota's development! it could be good or bad you just need to find out how many happy V6 Toyota customers they have on LPG.

For me it doesn't add up. The real running costs differences between LPG & ULP are tax related in the main and thats the hard one to predict. See if you can drive a converted Aurion before doing it too. i remember when ford brought out the AU they had a dedicated LPG version. I drove two wagons 1 LPG and 1 ULP and in 2000 the technology wasn't there for LPG it was a miserable poor cousin to drive in comparison.

[dannywss]

shortening the engine life + less at least 10% power + ugly boot + ugly hole for LPG + destroying yr pretty car, i still go for petrol.

just for saving petrol, no, i wont go for it. even if install cost just around $3k and depending on yr driving frequences, usually there WILL be a payback time, around 2-4 yrs?

[perthcamry]

If you wanted to save 30% in petrol costs prob better off buying the new corolla. Cheaper, better resale and its as big as the old camry........

[jonbays]

fuel cost is such a small overall cost compared with the bigger depreciation and fixed insurance and rego costs that it doesn't make sens to focus on it that much. if you want to save the world ride a push bike drive a Prius do something positive. converting a fairly large sedan with a 3.5L V6 to run on LPG isn't doing much for anything. Cetainly I won't bother till they bring out the pluggable diesel electric hybrids in the next 10 years or so. thats my bet for the future anyway for now its the Aurion reasonably big fast and not too bad on fuel.

[Dobmit]

If you’re going to convert a 2GR engine to LPG you should consider using an upper cylinder lubricant to help prevent valve seat wear - particularly because that engine isn’t designed for LPG.

Such as... www.trubluoil.com.au/UCL.html (I have no affiliation)

UCL improves fuel economy in normal petrol cars too - and helps prevent carbon build up in the top end.

LPG is much kinder to cylinder walls, engine oil and the bottom end of an engine - so no worries there.

[AndrewC]

Hi Jons

Thanks for your reply. I was wondering why you were asking for the figures. It makes sense what you're saying. I'll probably opt not to have LPG. I'm thinking only to keep the car for three - four years so after going through your calculations it's really not worthwhile to save a few hundred.

I have used a Prius before and it sucks power wise and boot space wise. It's been years since i rode a push bike and with the amount of equipment I'm carrying I might as well carry the bike on my back I'll probably move faster. :)

perthcamry, I have a corolla now and it's a great car I want a change of scenery.

Thanks again everyone that answered.

Andrew

[jonbays]

Hi Jons

Thanks for your reply. I was wondering why you were asking for the figures. It makes sense what you're saying. I'll probably opt not to have LPG. I'm thinking only to keep the car for three - four years so after going through your calculations it's really not worthwhile to save a few hundred.

I have used a Prius before and it sucks power wise and boot space wise. It's been years since i rode a push bike and with the amount of equipment I'm carrying I might as well carry the bike on my back I'll probably move faster. :)

perthcamry, I have a corolla now and it's a great car I want a change of scenery.

Thanks again everyone that answered.

Andrew

Nothing against Prius at all my sister (a greenie!) has one they are OK but not for me yet. But i am also a keen cyclist still. with QR wheels the bike fits in the boot just. You do wish for fold down rear seats though like a hatch sometimes

[melvinlau]

Some information on LPG

- Operates at a much higher temperature than Unleaded, may experience burnt valve seats, and reduces engine life.

- Harder to trade back in - valuers/used car managers do not like LPG conversions as they do not know how much damage has ben done to the engine.

- Toyota will NOT warrant the engine or any components related to the conversion.

- You cannot run the vehicle soley on LPG, a typical combination is 1 tank petrol 2 tanks gas.

- LPG is NOT available at all service stations - not very convienient if you are on the road all the time.

- Dual VVTi and LPG don't like each other.

- Takes space away from the boot as you have a giant gas tank in the back.

- Gas tank needs to inspected every few years for leaks and pressure, costs money.

There is more but I can't think of it at the moment...

Hope it helps Andrew.

Edited October 20, 2007 by melvinlau

[dannywss]

hrm, now even this salesperson says NO to LPG~ then for sure, i myself wont go for tat

[AndrewC]

Hi Melvin

Thanks for the response, Can I bring your attention to web article http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...5010760,00.html ? What you're saying and what they are saying are vey different. I find it very confusing and hopefully you can clarify it for me. My friend is set on get LPG.

Thanks mate

Andrew

[icejagans]

of course they will endorse it, it was a cover story for the lpg company.

like everyone said, if you want to save fuel buy a diesel or those ghastly hybrids. or even better switch to a corolla.

Edited April 10, 2008 by icejagans

[spags]

Only gas id put into my car is the gas out of my ***** into the seats.

Otherwise not worth it mate

Cheers and i hope that helps

[Tmaster100]

I wouldn't touch gas either. For the savings offered in ongoing fuel costs compared to the upfront cost, premature valve seal wear, higher maintenance (services) and the lower power output it simply is uneconomical to consider this option. Seriously, how many litres of unleaded fuel would you be able to buy to offset the cost of the gas installation? It would probably take 2 or more years to pay the investment back and during this time you would of emptied your wallet even more for the additional cost to service the car. Just not worth it in my opinion unless your a courier or taxi.

[Quark]

I wouldn't touch gas either. For the savings offered in ongoing fuel costs compared to the upfront cost, premature valve seal wear, higher maintenance (services) and the lower power output it simply is uneconomical to consider this option. Seriously, how many litres of unleaded fuel would you be able to buy to offset the cost of the gas installation? It would probably take 2 or more years to pay the investment back and during this time you would of emptied your wallet even more for the additional cost to service the car. Just not worth it in my opinion unless your a courier or taxi.

Hi Andrew.

As the other respondents to this thread have pointed out , there are major downsides to going dual fuel.

Surely one of the Aurions major pluses is the cavernous boot and the storage area in it. After the installation of a but ugly gas tank this would be reduced considerably, probably by at least 50%.

I suppose it really comes down to the type of car you want to drive. You mentioned that you currently drive a Carola but that the Aurion appealed to you.

Obviously the Aurion will never compete with the Carola regarding fuel consumption but hey, the Aurion is a great car, it does many things very well including class leading fuel economy. If you are not content with that then you are probably considering the wrong car.

Regards

Quark

[AcoustiK]

In fact the Corolla has pretty average fueld consumption ive heard people saying on a normal driving conditions it gets upto 9ltr/100, which is getting to a big car anwyays, if your wholy into the fuel consumption things then opt for a diesel,

[riftime]

Some information on LPG

- Operates at a much higher temperature than Unleaded, may experience burnt valve seats, and reduces engine life.

- Harder to trade back in - valuers/used car managers do not like LPG conversions as they do not know how much damage has ben done to the engine.

- Toyota will NOT warrant the engine or any components related to the conversion.

- You cannot run the vehicle soley on LPG, a typical combination is 1 tank petrol 2 tanks gas.

- LPG is NOT available at all service stations - not very convienient if you are on the road all the time.

- Dual VVTi and LPG don't like each other.

- Takes space away from the boot as you have a giant gas tank in the back.

- Gas tank needs to inspected every few years for leaks and pressure, costs money.

I believe that thanks to the higher running temperature it also reduces the life of the exhaust system. When I had an LPG Fairmont, I had to keep changing the exhaust every 2-3 years. Also had a lot of problems with the fuel injectors which used to cost about $500 to service and clean. Whatever cost saving was gained by the cheaper fuel was blown away by such maintenance costs. Perhaps if I drove on petrol more often the injectors wouldn't have been a problem, so you must consider that in the fuel comparison calculations as a must rather than a recommendation... 1 tank petrol 2 tanks gas (as mentioned above). The higher running temperature would obviously also reduce life of cooling system hoses, belts, etc. I most definitely had LESS power on LPG. It was notable. Consumption was also higher on LPG, probably by about 30-40%. Fueling time increases as well, took a lot longer to fill a gas tank than a petrol tank.

... the only thing that gets me is if LPG is so bad for the engine, why are there so many TAXIs that have driven more than 1,000,000 kms on LPG and still going? Is that perhaps thanks to the FORD engine? Not a great engine, but seems to take LPG in its stride?

[George A]

Hi Guys

I'm going to get a Aurion Prodigy within a few months. I've heard about LPG for a while and I haven't really thought about it, but since I getting a new car I was wondering if it's worthwhile changing it to LPG?

And if anyone have taken the step in changing to LPG on an Aurion, can they can put up a few pictures of it. I do travel alot and I require boot space for equpiment for work (mainly boxes of stuff)

I've been reading alot of good stuff about it, can anyone tell me the disadvantage of LPG?

Thanks

Andrew

[George A]

Hello Andrew. You may have heard a lot and read many things about LPG and whether it will be any good for your Aurion. I am the right person to speak to because I have done over 3 months of research via the internet and speaking to different installers. These are the very hard facts:

1. You will not lose any power at all.

2. There is no increase on engine wear (in fact, LPG will increase engine life).

3. With the current prices, the savings on fuel is 50% over petrol.

4. Your engine will not backfire (that happened with old technology)

5. You will be extremely happy with this fuel (I had my HSV Commodore on LPG 10 years ago and it was great). With this new system it will even be better.

Dont hesitate if you really want it. Dont listen to too many people and take very little notice of what is posted on the internet (I gues that means me). I have a saying, 'Dont believe what you hear and only believe half what you see.'

I have done all my homework for the Aurion. Dont bother with what Toyota might say because they would rather have you buy their Prius if you want to save money. As a matter of fact, when you speak to any one of them, they all seem to have a different opinion about LPG.

Be sure you pick the right installer. I went and checked out a few places and I decided to go with this particular one because of the following reasons:

1. Professional looking workshop

2. Manager was very knowledgeable and answered all the weird questions

Good luck. I will give you my mobile if you wish to discuss this via phone.

George

Edited May 31, 2008 by George A

[dave262]

Hello Andrew. You may have heard a lot and read many things about LPG and whether it will be any good for your Aurion. I am the right person to speak to because I have done over 3 months of research via the internet and speaking to different installers. These are the very hard facts:

1. You will not lose any power at all.

2. There is no increase on engine wear (in fact, LPG will increase engine life).

3. With the current prices, the savings on fuel is 50% over petrol.

4. Your engine will not backfire (that happened with old technology)

5. You will be extremely happy with this fuel (I had my HSV Commodore on LPG 10 years ago and it was great). With this new system it will even be better.

Dont hesitate if you really want it. Dont listen to too many people and take very little notice of what is posted on the internet (I gues that means me). I have a saying, 'Dont believe what you hear and only believe half what you see.'

I have done all my homework for the Aurion. Dont bother with what Toyota might say because they would rather have you buy their Prius if you want to save money. As a matter of fact, when you speak to any one of them, they all seem to have a different opinion about LPG.

Be sure you pick the right installer. I went and checked out a few places and I decided to go with this particular one because of the following reasons:

1. Professional looking workshop

2. Manager was very knowledgeable and answered all the weird questions

Good luck. I will give you my mobile if you wish to discuss this via phone.

George

Where did you research this information? Some of those points defy the logic of physics...

1. LPG will cause a power and efficiency loss due to the lower density of the gas. LPG has a higher octane rating, which compensates for the lighter density and brings performance to a comparable point to petrol. The loss of efficiency still exists however and means that in a car that would typically make 10L/100km of petrol, will be closer to 15L/100k running on gas. This is going to be the case with comparing ANY gaseous fuel to a liquid fuel and is a scientific fact that cannot be debated.

2. Engine wear - this is a point to be argued. UNLESS additives are used in the gas to provide additional lubrication of which gas by itself lacks, valve seat wear WILL INCREASE. There is negligible impact to cylinder walls and rings. However, this may be compensated IF the engine is designed to run with gas (the Aurion is NOT designed to run with gas), which in that case will have compatible alloys and internal designs to be able to handle the significant reduction in lubrication. If you wander around wreckers and take a look at almost any car that has a gas system, you will find that the head is not in very good condition and will require either valve seat replacement and/or entire valve replacement. LPG does not have any lubrication at all by itself.

3. This is true for the most part, but is quickly compensated by the fact that additional tuning and maintenance is required in order to ensure the gas system is safe. This includes regular checks of emergency cutoff valves and testing of all fittings to ensure there are no leaks. In older systems that used an air intake mixer - this would also include replacement of diaphragm parts at regular intervals to ensure correct mixture. This is not the case with injection systems, although they must still be tuned on occasion to compensate for any variances introduced by various qualities of gas. Also note - the government has plans in the very near future to introduce additional excise tax to gas (approximately 60c/l has been suggested!), which will very, very quickly make any additional gains very minimal.

4. Yes this is true - only the old-style mixer systems had this issue due to incorrect mixtures from lack of tuning. Injected systems do not have this issue as an ECU is used.

Do not believe everything gas fitters say, as they are all out there trying to make an easy sale!

Edited May 31, 2008 by dave262