Q: Regarding Australian Flag, the anthem and the southern cross.

[JJCRU23R]

In case you havent already figured out, although I was born in Sydney, consider myself an Australian, I have just about as much love for the country my parents and my wife were born : the Philippines.

Recently in the Phil'z there has been some controversy over singers singing their own versions of the national anthem (much like many American artists do when they sing the anthem) as well as the use of "elements" of the Filipino flag as a fashion accessory.

For those unfamiliar with the Filipino flag, here it is:

And here are a few examples of the flag/the stars being used as a fashion statement:

Now ive just read an article CLICK HERE FOR THE ARTICLE that states that the Filipino government has made it clear that it is not only "offensive" or "disrespectful" to appropriate the sun/stars from the flag or to sing a more upbeat/soulful version of the anthem, it is now very illegal to do so!

"Penalties imposed against violators include a fine ranging from P50,000 to P100,000 and imprisonment of up to two years." (P100000 = almost $2600AU atm)

This sucks for me since my brother recently came back from Philippines and brought me back a couple of shirts bareing the filipino sun and stars, which I initially thought was pretty cool since its kinda like the Filo equivilent of the Southern Cross... Ive been wearing them with pride.. no disrepect to anyone or anything in particular.

Now... over the past few years I have seen hundreds of cars, various bits of clothing and tattoos of the Southern Cross, which looks exactly the same as the stars which appear in our Australian flag. I have also seen and heard people singing their own stylised versions of the Australian national anthem.

My question to you all is this. Since it is considered that the Aussie flag and the anthem are "national treasures", is it or should it be considered an offence to use the southern cross as a fashion statement or a symbol of "aussie pride"?

I fully understand the patriotism behind the idea, but I cant help associating the words "aussie pride" with racial discrimination against those who dont appear typically australian.

So far all that is clear to me is this: Burning/ damaging the flag is illegal and punishable by law.

But what about all the other people who use the southern cross as some sort of statement? And what about the singers whove sung their own versions of the anthem? Is that or is that not offense (punishable by law)?

Since the Philippines has already made a decision on the issue, Ive been wondering what was Australia's official stance on this stuff.

Jase.

Edited June 11, 2009 by mannyMANNYmanny

[Madrox]

Personally i dont think their is anything wrong with displaying the Aussie flag or getting tats of the southern cross ect.

On australia day i had the flag drapped over the bonnet of my car for a while and didn't see it is a problem, until 2 middle eastern looking youths decided to spit at it. I am Australian and so are my parents and grandparents, but i never see "Aussie pride" or the southern cross as some kind of race symbol. I believe that other races see us displaying the flag as us being racist, hence why they spat at it. Interesting you should bring this up now as about a month ago, Triple J was having a discussion about race related violence that is now associated with the southern cross being seen as a gang sign. Personally i understand why people would see it as being racist. Cronulla riots just fuelled the fire that is growing. Big day out has now banned the flag from its events aswell.

Singers using our national anthem is not illegal and having apparel with our countries flag or southern cross is also not illegal and i hope it never is.

Oh and BTW, those shirts look awsome. They have a wicked style to them

[cruzer]

i think what madrox has written is actually pretty good it explains it well i am lookin at gettin the southern cross for a tattoo i dnt see it as a fashion statement or a title i am merely gettin a tatto to represent my happiness of being a citizen of aus for my whole life

[Madrox]

My brother got the southern cross tattoo on his thigh but, he got it for all the wrong reasons.

He got it as a statement about being so much better than other races because he is Aussie.

I smacked him around a bit and told him to change his tune quick smart before the family dissownes him.

Me on the other hand was going to get one on my shoulder for much the same reasons as cruzer.

I am a proud australian but that doesn't mean i hate other races, i just feel lucky to be born here and cherish this country and all it has given me.

[JJCRU23R]

Thats funny how non white australians consider the southern cross or even the flag as somewhat offensive. I asked a group of students in one of my art classes the same queston (all were white/aussie/aboriginal decent) and they saw nothing racist about the term "aussie pride" or the southern cross.

[Madrox]

But i see the lebanese flag put over the top of our country and having wogstralia written on it as being extreamly offensive, they dont (as seen on TT about a year ago).

It all comes down to how everybody takes it.

Things like this i find very offensive though

NWS contains the F word.

(i have linked to the photo as it contains a profanity and i dont wanna get in trouble for swearing)

in short it says F off were full.

[mbruce]

I am a seventh generation Australian, and proud to be so! I think its quite ok to use the southern cross as a fashion statement/patriotism, provided its for the right reasons. Same with the anthem, as long as it’s respectful.

Thats funny how non white australians consider the southern cross or even the flag as somewhat offensive. I asked a group of students in one of my art classes the same queston (all were white/aussie/aboriginal decent) and they saw nothing racist about the term "aussie pride" or the southern cross.

And why should they?

Personally I would be a bit offended if some in Australia took offence at our own national symbols/patrutisum, and bluntly if they dislike Australians and our ways, perhaps they should reconsider why they are here?

Now I know some use this as a "I am better than you" kind of thing, and of course that’s wrong! And from that point of view I can partly understand where they are comming from.

Edited June 11, 2009 by mbruce

[JJCRU23R]

mbruce all I meant was I thought it was pretty cool that my full blooded aussie students saw nothing racially intended about the statement other than being able to celebrate Australian ideals.

But according to the Filipino government, regardless if the deed was done with respect or not, you would be breaking the law because the flag and anthem are national symbols that shouldnt be messed with. (which sucks coz i like wearing those shirts)

Although I am an art teacher and believe in freedom of expression.. it seems somewhat of a double standard to say its ok to use the southern cross for some things and not for others.

Anyways.. I guess things like the flag have different meanings to everyone and you cant make everyone happy all the time.

Edited June 11, 2009 by mannyMANNYmanny

[1stKill]

i wouldn't say it's a double standard issue,i think it comes down to a respect issue,and to be honest i think in todays society there is very little respect towards Australias heritage and symbols..

double standards can be applied in most situations so to me this is just an easy out or and an easy blame,trust me most of this topic would be null & void if RESPECT for ya fellow man came into it.

to me being patriotic is a peronal thing and prolly is to most Aussie's ( we are a reserved bunch of people mostly) as we all should feel huge love & respect for this great country we live in..

p.s just my 2 cents,hope i didn't pizz anyone off... B)

[RoM2nV]

wow, very different government. I guess since the flag does mean their history and what not, they wouldn't want it to become a fashion trend, keep it formal.

I'm against it but it seems justified.

[Tats]

That's an interesting call by the Philipino government! Your shirt looks pretty cool and I wouldn't describe it as being disrespectful to the flag at all. I wonder what motivated them to make such a decision?

Oh, but I feel I should comment on this.....

Since it is considered that the Aussie flag and the anthem are "national treasures"

Mate our national anthem is about as much of a treasure as a swift kick in the bum Half the country wants to change it to "Waltzing Matilda"

[JJCRU23R]

i thought an abreviated version of 'my island home' by christina anu would be more appropriate

[JJCRU23R]

i fully agree with this shirt.. you should definately know your roots :P

[Leroy]

I'm actually with the philipino govt on this one (maybe not to the same extent, though).

Forget your own pride in the flag for a second... what the shirts are doing is 'toughening' up the image of the country, sorta like bikies do when they go out in full colours. The font on the shirts is sorta aggressive, and bears the slogan 'the filipino assassin'.

How is that national pride, other than to say "don't mess me with me cos I'm filipino"??

My stance is the same on the southern cross, or any other flag that is used in aggression.... We all know you live here, so whats the point in driving around with the southern cross across the entire length your back windscreen unless you are trying to rub your identity in the faces of others?

Same again with all the maccas I went to school with that carved "makedonija" into all the tables...

[Hiro]

I'm actually with the philipino govt on this one (maybe not to the same extent, though).

Forget your own pride in the flag for a second... what the shirts are doing is 'toughening' up the image of the country, sorta like bikies do when they go out in full colours. The font on the shirts is sorta aggressive, and bears the slogan 'the filipino assassin'.

How is that national pride, other than to say "don't mess me with me cos I'm filipino"??

My stance is the same on the southern cross, or any other flag that is used in aggression.... We all know you live here, so whats the point in driving around with the southern cross across the entire length your back windscreen unless you are trying to rub your identity in the faces of others?

Same again with all the maccas I went to school with that carved "makedonija" into all the tables...

QFT

Seems that the bigger the southern cross sticker, the more of a bogan you are and the less of a true "Australian" you are (there will be exceptions of course, but it seems fairly accurate from what I've seen)

[Kia Kaha]

I can see both sides of the argument. Personally, I don't see a problem with displaying the southern cross or flag, and it is up to each Countries discretion as to what laws they enforce. Do you think it is fair that we lose our hand/s for stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving child? No.

Just so we are straight, I am a New Zealander (Born in N.Z) and have lived here for most of my life. I am one of those people that hang the Aussie flag on Aust. Day and play AC/DC with it aswell. I also keep my heritage with tattoos that are specific to me and the tribe I belong to and am no way doing it to rub peoples faces in it.

However, the government and Aust Flag are there for the people of this country not the other way around. The flag belongs to the citizens and the government are there to provide for its people. So the day you are unable to fly your nations flag with pride (ANZAC day or Aust Day for example) is the day the government has let down its own people.

Sorry if my opinion offends anyone, but if you are not happy in this country then exercise one of the many freedoms you have here and leave to somewhere you will be happier. This is just my opinion.

[JJCRU23R]

It was my understanding that the Filipino Govt's argument is that the flag should only be displayed completely, as it originally appears, whether its on clothes, cars, or flying on a flag pole.

any variations of this (IE - using ONLY the stars and sun, or modifying the original flag in some way) would be considered illegal.

as for the anthem, the Filipino anthem supposedly has a specific rhythm similar to a military march. If you watch the Pacquiao vs Hatton fight the other month, you would have seen Filipino singer Martin Nievera singing his own version of the anthem which started out slow and ended on a big long note.

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interestingly enough hes also wearing a shirt with the sun + stars... broke the law twice at the same time?! lol

compare that to the original below:

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Edited June 16, 2009 by mannyMANNYmanny

[the_random_hero]

I get REALLY angry at all the "F*** off we're full" ****ers, most of the time I abuse them for being redneck douche's than seeing it as a sense of national pride. As has been said, as soon as it's used as a sign of aggression, then they are no better than all the people of Middle Eastern descent involved in the Cronulla riots.

Sort of motto I go by would be closer to "Australia; Love it or get the f*** out". This applies to anybody of any origin, I don't care if you're white, brown, yellow, or purple - if you don't love our country and everything that entails, then I don't want you living here.

[Kia Kaha]

I get REALLY angry at all the "F*** off we're full" ****ers, most of the time I abuse them for being redneck douche's than seeing it as a sense of national pride. As has been said, as soon as it's used as a sign of aggression, then they are no better than all the people of Middle Eastern descent involved in the Cronulla riots.

Sort of motto I go by would be closer to "Australia; Love it or get the f*** out". This applies to anybody of any origin, I don't care if you're white, brown, yellow, or purple - if you don't love our country and everything that entails, then I don't want you living here.

+1. I agree with the F*** of statement. I also had a sticker saying "Love it or Leave it" and people were offended by that! I guess these were the ones that have a problem with living in this country. I also had this sticker on before the Cronulla situation, and thought to myself 'I'd better take this off' (as I lived in Canterbury area at the time) only to find out someone had already started the process for me. I am glad they only did the sticker and not the car.

Oh Yeah, I am a Kiwi so I am happy to stick up for the Country that has provided a good life for me and my family and will continue to show support for the place I call home.

[the_random_hero]

I get REALLY angry at all the "F*** off we're full" ****ers, most of the time I abuse them for being redneck douche's than seeing it as a sense of national pride. As has been said, as soon as it's used as a sign of aggression, then they are no better than all the people of Middle Eastern descent involved in the Cronulla riots.

Sort of motto I go by would be closer to "Australia; Love it or get the f*** out". This applies to anybody of any origin, I don't care if you're white, brown, yellow, or purple - if you don't love our country and everything that entails, then I don't want you living here.

+1. I agree with the F*** of statement. I also had a sticker saying "Love it or Leave it" and people were offended by that! I guess these were the ones that have a problem with living in this country. I also had this sticker on before the Cronulla situation, and thought to myself 'I'd better take this off' (as I lived in Canterbury area at the time) only to find out someone had already started the process for me. I am glad they only did the sticker and not the car.

Oh Yeah, I am a Kiwi so I am happy to stick up for the Country that has provided a good life for me and my family and will continue to show support for the place I call home.

Exactly dude, it's so good to see another person who thinks the same. My neighbour and the house across the street are from Tonga, on Australia Day both their houses had the Australian flags flying everywhere and they had a big bbq - I can't think of anything more Australian.

I heard from a friend who was at Redcliffe beach on Australia Day this year there was a large group of Maori's having a bbq, playing footy, etc when a carload of bogans came down, started throwing bottles at them, telling them to f*** off home, etc. Instead of sparking up, they ignored it until punches started to be thrown from the bogan side, I think one of the offenders was hit in retaliation and that was the only punch thrown from their side of things. To me, I can't think of anything more unAustralian than what the bogans demonstrated - being 'Australian' has never been about skin colour, and should never.

Edited June 17, 2009 by the_random_hero

[Simo]

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This makes me so proud to be Australian (seriously).

[Rolla Boy]

LOL, best half time speech ever!!!