automatic failure Automatic transmission failure

[Tanny58]

Please read:

 

Beware of Toyota sealed automatic transmissions!!!

 

Toyota have used factory 'sealed for life' automatic transmissions since at least 2009 in the Aurion and most, if not all, of the Camery series.

 

These gearboxes don't have an oil level dipstick and is not a 'regular' serviceable item, that means that your service centre does not check the quality of the automatic oil in your automatic.

 

So what you say, let me tell you my story.

 

As you can read below in my previous praise of my Aurion, I've always had my car serviced at a Toyota dealership as per logbook requirements,  I've always been guided by the dealerships recommendations and have never skimped on the costs of anything that has been required.

At approximately 171,000 (just 11,000 (mid January 2016) after my last review), I started to hear a slight whirring sound (like the old speedo cables used to do), within a couple of days it got worse so I rang the dealership and booked it in,

imagine my surprise when they phoned me up and said that my automatic transmission was failing, they told me that it would cost $8950.00 to overhaul.

 

I authorised them to do a 'transmission flush' ($450), they told me that there were metal filings in the transmission oil. I couldn't afford the $8950.00 so I collected my car and rang around and found a transmission specialist that could do me a second hand, fully cleaned auto for less than $3500.00 fully installed.

 

I contacted Toyota Australia via email to firmly state my case that to have a sealed at factory automatic,  and for it not to even be a serviceable item, has caused it to fail prematurely.  The rest of the car mechanics are in tip top condition because they have been regularly serviced.

 

Toyota asked the dealership for their opinion, the reply was "It has been advised after inspection, the cause of failure is due to the wearing of the hard coating in one of the bearings in your vehicle. Possible contributors may include but are not limited to misuse of the vehicle, wear and tear, lack of servicing, natural deterioration".

 

1) I have never misused my car (as evidenced by the mechanical condition of the engine and the rest of the car), yes it accelerates quickly, but misuse? 

2) Wear and tear (5 years,  171,000 km......hmmmm maybe, I know of 20 and 30 year old cars that are still going strong)

3) Lack of servicing,  now this is a good one, you can't even 'check the oil' level yourself and neither can the dealer,  nor is there any service requirement/recommendation in the log book.

4) Natural deterioration (so what is the Toyota expectation of 'natural deterioration'?

 

I asked them how they could tell what had failed without pulling the transmission apart, unless this is growing common problem (no comment from them).

Toyota Australia gave me a standard reply that my car is out of warranty so basically,  that's my problem.

 

My gripe is, that if the gearbox was a serviceable item (as are the rest of the car mechanicals), that it would have been unlikely that it would have failed because the oil would have been replaced regularly and maintained sufficient lubricating properties so that the hard coating surface of the bearing didn't fail.

 

PLEASE be wary of the 'factory sealed for life' gearbox,  all oils break down with time and temperature and to get the gearbox fixed is expensive!!!!!!

 

Kind regards

Steve

 

   

Below is my previous review....

Aurion SX6 Sportivo purchased as new in November 2010.

Never had a problem of any kind, serviced as per logbook (100,000 service a bit expensive),  now up to 160, 000 km on the clock.

Use Mastercraft tyres (same manufacturer as Cooper 4WD tyres, get at least 50,000 km of hard driving out of them)

Will drag the [censored word removed] off most SV6 and XR6.

Love this car

 

[trentmeyer23]

It does make it hard to believe you have not misused the vehicle when you say that you have done "hard driving" and it "Will drag the [censored word removed] off most SV6 and XR6."

If you were aware that oils break down with time and temperature, why did you not do some preventative maintenance?

A filter and oil change is a bit of a pain, but overall the benefit outweighs the time taken and risk of failure. Just because a manufacturer says you don't need to service a component, doesn't mean that you can't. There are many cars out there with more kilometres on them still going strong.

[Tanny58]

Hi trentmeyer23,

Ah, the value of hindsight.

The Toyota dealership were always told to 'do whatever is needed' to keep the car in top running order, just ring me for expenditure approval.

As stated, it accelerates fast, and yes it can and has beaten other cars on the road to legal speed limits ( I also have a clean license).

My point is, everything mechanical on the car has been in the hands of the dealership to make sure that everything runs well, I would never have considered that the automatic was an unserviceable component. 

When you use an authorised dealership,  there is an implied agreement that they will service your car to factory specifications and this is something that they trade on, there is nothing in the service manual that excludes the automatic transmission. 

How is a layman (that hadn't had any trouble with the car beforehand) supposed to know these things, I'm certainly not mechanically minded enough, maybe you are :-)

My speciality is electronic surveillance, there are things in my field that most people wouldn't have a clue about, that's why they rely on my expertise. 

Cheers

 

[mg85]

Sorry to hear about your A/T Steve

I believe the capped price servicing, most manufacturers have come up with contributes to this type of problem for instance a mate of mine was told by his Toyota dealer that the fuel filter on his diesel Landcruiser is no longer a service item and would only be replaced if a problem arose, like the light coming on. Now diesel has not miraculously become very clean and we were all told to replace then every 40k but not now since capped price service is around. What's changed? Car reviews always include the price of the capped price service, great motivation to do less than minimum in my book.

I can't for the life of me see how  Auto trans fluid is supposed to last the life of a vehicle. I will continue to service mine every 20k myself, tis a bit fiddly but geez nearly 9K is great motivation.

[Tanny58]

Hi mg85, 

My NEW automatic transmission service centre will be looking after my car from now on. 

He's the same as you, every 20,000 drop the pan and let it drain for a couple of hours and refill.

Take care mate, safe motoring.

Cheers

Steve

[matt36415]

I agree with you Steve, its annoying that toyota dont even recommend servicing that is clearly needed. The only clue for a non mechanical person is in the severe operating part of the service table - from memory it has a trans oil change at 100 000km. 

 

Now that you have a newer gearbox, I would suggest asking the specialty transmission guys who built it what they recommend. They are the real experts on how wear and problems happen as they see the results of it all day. 

 

I used to rebuild transmissions at a holden dealership (15yrs ago) and as a result of that I would never believe an oil could do its many jobs effectively for long enough to be called 'lifetime'.  Although there are undoubtedly better and worse designs, just like many engines which are well serviced have a long life, most autos will too if they just get fluid replacement - even a partial one every 30 or 40 thousand km.

[nswnotill]

Mark, Steve, Trent ( and anyone else who would care to comment)

This is all interesting stuff. I have a 2008 model, which has now done 160K. Still goes well. Regularly serviced by independent operator (local Repco franchise) who does a real good job. The car does mostly highway work, with 10% of the time pulling a 850 Kg (loaded) tandem box trailer. Should I ask him to do some sort of regular auto. trans. service using recommended lubricants, despite the 'sealed for life' claim?.

Thank you.

 

 

[mg85]

Dear Ron,

I defiantly would, nearly 9k for a rebuild from a dealer is great motivator for me, especially as you are towing sometimes.

The WS fluid from Toyota is not that dear really if you want to stick to genuine fluid

[Tanny58]

7 hours ago, matt36415 said:

I agree with you Steve, its annoying that toyota dont even recommend servicing that is clearly needed. The only clue for a non mechanical person is in the severe operating part of the service table - from memory it has a trans oil change at 100 000km. 

 

Now that you have a newer gearbox, I would suggest asking the specialty transmission guys who built it what they recommend. They are the real experts on how wear and problems happen as they see the results of it all day. 

 

I used to rebuild transmissions at a holden dealership (15yrs ago) and as a result of that I would never believe an oil could do its many jobs effectively for long enough to be called 'lifetime'.  Although there are undoubtedly better and worse designs, just like many engines which are well serviced have a long life, most autos will too if they just get fluid replacement - even a partial one every 30 or 40 thousand km.

Hi Matt,

My new mechanic has been plying his trade at the same address for 32 years, he does RACQ, NRMA, police cars and a heap of private cars.

As he said to me "20,000 km is when you should be looking at dropping the pan and changing out the auto oil IF you want to keep it top notch condition".

 

Cheers

Steve

[Tanny58]

Hi Ron,

You'll probably find that there's more sludge in your automatic than oil, as Mark said above, dealer price $9000 is a great motivator,  pity you're not in Brisbane,  I would recommend my mechanic.

Good luck mate.

[jacko16]

Hi all I have a Aurion and at about 60000K I did remove the Transition oil pan and changed the AF oil.

the oil looked ok but on the bottom of the pan there was a lot of mug, so I clean it and changed the filter and pan kit and new Toyota AT oil.

after doing this I also put a inline AT filter to the oil coler pipes.

Note befor I did the AT oil I did check with Toyota and they said never to change/service the AT.

You must ask Toyota to at lest pay of of the cost of a new AT.

Thanks

 

[trentmeyer23]

52 minutes ago, jacko16 said:

You must ask Toyota to at lest pay of of the cost of a new AT.

In their eyes, they have fulfilled their end of the deal with the 3 year/100,000km warranty. You would have a hell of a fight on your hands to try get anything at 6 years and 171,000km.

[Tanny58]

Ron, unfortunately I agree with Trent, Toyotas view is exactly that, the warranty has passed, therefore, unless I can 'prove' that there was a manufacturing defect, then tough.

My point is, and always will be, that Toyota doesn't even have a minimum recommendation for their sealed gearboxes, I've asked them what their mean time between failure (MTBF) or expected life is on the sealed automatic would be, but they didn't and haven't addressed that in their replies to me.

Quite simply, everything else on my car is serviced regularly and is performing admirably, It's funny how the one thing that is 'sealed for life' AND not in the logbook service schedule is the 1 thing that has failed......

Some people 'in the know' realise that sealed for life gearboxes still require some sort of attention,  unfortunately I'm not one of them, as I've said previously,  my expertise is elsewhere.

It's a mistake that I won't make twice, next time I buy a car the bonnet gets popped and If there's not 2 dipsticks then I'll move on.

Cheers

Steve

[jacko16]

Hi Steve

Toyota has to pay for the repaired. You have been looking after the full service of the car as per service manual and has all ways taken the car to Toyota for the service they have to look after you.

[Tanny58]

Unfortunately not jacko16.

Only if I can prove that there was a manufacturing fault in the bearing.

All i can do is to make sure as many people know about this as possible.

It's a one man crusade

Cheers

Stev

[nswnotill]

I had a chat to my regular independent  service workshop (see previous post) who looks after my Aurion,  re the issue of ' sealed transmissions'.

His policy is to advise all of his clients who have vehicles with 'sealed transmissions' that they should be serviced every 80,000 Km.

He offers to do this, but it is up to the client whether permission is given to do the service.

He strongly advises clents who have vehicles doing regular heavy work (e.g. towing caravans) to have this regular service.

They can still opt out if they wish.

This seems good to me and I will be adopting this recommendation.

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by nswnotill
spelling error

[Aurion2Envy]

Not sure where I read this but apparently you're more likely to have transmission issues if you've serviced a sealed transmission.

[nswnotill]

Khalid,

If this is the case - looks like one is 'damned if you do- damned if you don't'.

Is this an emerging trend  for 'sealed for life' transmissions? What other motor vehicle manufacturers are moving this way?
 

[Tanny58]

Hi Ron,

My car has always been serviced by the same dealership that I purchased it from.

NEVER have they ever asked or suggested that the auto be serviced or checked, and certainly never given the option to opt out. 

I'm that anal with my car that I replaced all of my tyres (still had 20,000 km left according to the dealer) simply because I don't believe in tubeless plugs and I wanted to keep all wear the same.

Once again, it will never happen twice to me.

Take care mate. 

Steve

[Tanny58]

Australian car reviews have added to their site after they looked into my particular case.

U660E: transmission fluid replacement

 http://m.australiancar.reviews/reviews.php#!content=recalls&make=Toyota&model=Aurion&gen=881

Cheers all

Steve

[trentmeyer23]

4 minutes ago, Tanny58 said:

I don't believe in tubeless plugs

A correctly fitted plug will not detriment the tyre whatsoever.

Back on topic, 80,000km would be a more realistic servicing plan. If you do it too often you will risk distorting the oil pan and potentially stretching the bolts from continuous torquing/potential over torquing. This may result in a leaking pan and could potentially require the pan and bolts to be replaced.

[Tanny58]

Hi Trent,

Not using tyre plugs are just my preference,  the tyre bloke said they would be fine too.

Taken on board about the AT service intervals. 

Cheers

Steve

[nswnotill]

Thanks to all for the link on Youtube explaining the procedure for checking or changing the oil in the 'sealed for life' transmission.

It was very informative - although 30 minutes long.

 

[mg85]

16 hours ago, Aurion2Envy said:

Not sure where I read this but apparently you're more likely to have transmission issues if you've serviced a sealed transmission.

Defiantly not true, what would be the problem is not getting the fluid level correct because there is no dip stick. The level needs to be at the dip tube height at 40c - 45c for the fluid temperature. Or using the wrong fluid

A job for either a competent informed person with the right gear or a A/T specialist

[LordBug]

It sucks that it happened, but thanks for giving us all a timely reminder about it Steve. And a double thanks for the link to the AustralianCar.Reviews page, with that video on checking the ATF level, very informative!
I may not have any of the tools that fellow used, but it has taught me how I may adapt.

Verrrry interesting stuff, though ultimately very straight forwards :)