My Transmission Service

[Bigmike62]

Hi guys, wow that was great work with the transmission service..Im wondering..

I got my mechanic to service mine just after purchasing, it had 71,000 on the odd.. 

How often should this be done ?

Cheers..

Mike

[Tony Prodigy]

6 minutes ago, Bigmike62 said:

Hi guys, wow that was great work with the transmission service..Im wondering..

I got my mechanic to service mine just after purchasing, it had 71,000 on the odd.. 

How often should this be done ?

Cheers..

Mike

Thanks Big Mike. Nothing wrong with doing the service at 70k, in fact I've heard some say to do it even earlier. I probably should've done mine a bit earlier but as you read in my report, it wasn't in bad condition so just goes to show that the transmission can go unserviced outside of the usual schedule if the car hasn't been flogged. 

I can't recall what the schedule is off the top of my head, but I think it's like every 40K after the initial service. Some who have only done the pan drain will do an annual pan drain, but because I did a full flush, the next service will be a pan drain.

[campbeam]

14 minutes ago, Bigmike62 said:

I got my mechanic to service mine just after purchasing, it had 71,000 on the odd.. 

How often should this be done ?

I posted the maintenance service interval on October 18 of this thread. 

Also have a look at Page 8 of the following thread. 

 

[domej]

Hi guys, I performed a filter change and fluid flush after doing a series of drain and fills starting at 186k (now at 187k) using Penrite ATF LV. During the first test drive after the flush and filter change, the car wouldn't shift out of first and was jerking back and forth. Honestly, a terrifying experience when pulling out into traffic. I thought I'd let everyone know that an ecu reset by disconnecting the battery overnight has fixed the issue and the car is now shifting like a dream. Torque converter shudder seems to have disappeared as well. 

[Tony Prodigy]

5 hours ago, domej said:

Hi guys, I performed a filter change and fluid flush after doing a series of drain and fills starting at 186k (now at 187k) using Penrite ATF LV. During the first test drive after the flush and filter change, the car wouldn't shift out of first and was jerking back and forth.

Hi Dominic, strange that you'd report such a thing because a simple fluid change shouldn't upset the transmission in the manner you described unless you haven't followed the procedure correctly. Glad though to hear that resetting the ECU has normalised it but I have to ask why this occurred in the first place.

Did you have the vehicle up and levelled and did you follow the fluid adjustment procedure to the T ?

A series of pan drains isn't really considered a 'flush' as such. If you followed my procedure, it would've taken you less time and you would've done a proper flush.

[domej]

Hi Tony, looks like I haven't expressed myself clearly. My car, bought used, had no sign of any transmission service ever being performed. When I drained the fluid, it was quite literally black. I didn't want to do a full flush immediately to avoid "shocking" the old clutch material or mixing up large chunks of sludge. The transmission seemed happy with the increasing amounts of Penrite ATF LV so I did follow yours (and others posted) procedure and did a proper full flush. Thats when the transmission acted funny. I'd assume I followed the procedure properly because the transmission is working perfectly after disconnecting the battery.

[Tony Prodigy]

4 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

after doing a series of drain and fills starting at 186k (now at 187k)

That's a heck a long time without a service I must say. 

17 minutes ago, domej said:

When I drained the fluid, it was quite literally black. I didn't want to do a full flush immediately to avoid "shocking" the old clutch material or mixing up large chunks of sludge.

Looks like it's had a hard life if the fluid was black. Black is quite literally the fluid being over cooked from hard use and good for you doing the service. You may have just saved it from premature failure. 

It was probably the transition from old fluid to new which made it act up. Sometimes a transmission will work better with the old fluid in it because of the friction material deposited into the fluid which helps keep the clutches from slipping. But that case would be terminal anyway if it's got to that point. 

I'd give it 6 months or so and then do a pan drain to see how the fluid looks and also check the magnets for any deposits. You may have caught it in time.

[campbeam]

Highly recommend that you consider removing the transmission pan ASAP.

I am expecting that there will be a significant amount of build up on the bottom of the pan which has to be physically cleaned off. My Aurion with 165K on the odometer 5 years ago had enough build up that you could write in it. 

[domej]

Certainly did, that's how I changed the filter. There was minimal sludge (if any) but the magnets had some fuzz on them but no large chunks of metal.

[Tony Prodigy]

Just now, domej said:

the magnets had some fuzz on them but no large chunks of metal.

All very normal. 

[campbeam]

6 hours ago, domej said:

Certainly did, that's how I changed the filter. There was minimal sludge (if any) but the magnets had some fuzz on them but no large chunks of metal.

A bit rushed before. Now that I have taken the time to better look and comprehend, you have done everything to get the transmission working perfectly for you.

For myself, I am planning upon doing a fluid level check then think about when I should do the next transmission pan drain.

[campbeam]

Just came across this recently released YouTube video from our good mate John about servicing automatic transmissions. Certainly got me thinking about how much the ATF temperature could be spiking while I am doing a fast and furious overtaking in contrast to a more measured overtaking maneuver. Hopefully offset by the amount of heat dissipation until the next overtaking maneuver. 

   

[Tony Prodigy]

John Cadogan explains it so simply. The hide of the marketers to claim we have a lifetime transmission. This should be called out for the fraud that it is. They have no idea how the car is going to be driven to make such a ridiculous claim.

I'm glad I did mine despite it having had an easy life, but for those who have a heavy foot i would definitely recommend having your tranny serviced regularly, especially if you're towing.

The additional transmission cooler is also a great idea, even for cars driven normally. The better you can reject the heat from the fluid the better its integrity and longevity.

[campbeam]

Following URL is worth reading particularly from the "Lifetime Fluids" section onwards. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid 

The other issue is how vehicle manufacturer's describe/define Normal Driving vs Severe Driving. What consumers would regard as normal daily driving often falls into the severe driving condition. Driving in peak hour traffic where the freeway can be a crawl is not my daily commute to work. 

Additional transmission cooler has been on the 'to do' list for a few years. Case is building to actually do it before the next road trip.

[campbeam]

U660E AUTOMATIC TRANSAXLE FLUID ADJUSTMENT.doc

On 11/2/2020 at 8:01 AM, campbeam said:

After lots of research and experience to get it right, I have developed a few, revised, quick workaround procedures that I am happy with but would upset the "purists". Same thinking about that trickle approach. Extra fluid added at the start avoids the need for that extra 200ml.

After the next road trip, I will have to remember to do a precise fluid level check using a thermal gun. It would be a good time to try and quantify that trickle approach vs slow drips then add 200 ml. 

Just as a follow up, waiting for warmer weather before doing a precise fluid level check. For reference purposes, I uploaded the Toyota Service Bulletin for adding the extra 200ml back in September 2019.

 

[campbeam]

As background, I have been doing a series of pan drains using a shortcut method of replacing the same amount of ATF drained plus a few extra mls without doing a precise fluid level check. I was suspecting that the transmission could be slightly overfull so a precise fluid level check was definitely required. I was also starting to be a bit more aware of the gear changes. This morning was a cool 14C when driving and the gear changes were absolutely smooth. Odometer reading was approx. 230,300kms and the last pan drain was probably October 2020.

Please note that I have totally deviated from the recommended ATF change procedure and done the following.

1. Car up on ramps and drain the ATF. Engine is turned off resulting in more ATF being in the pan.

2. Put used ATF into 2 x 1.5 litre bottles. 1 bottle is totally full and the 2nd bottle was more than 1/2 full.

3. Put new ATF into another 2 x 1.5 litre bottles with the same fill levels as the used ATF.

4. Refit the ATF fluid level plastic straw insert and the drain plug. Do not overtighten.

5. Vehicle is off the ramps and back on level driveway so time to measure the ride height [720mm on my vehicle] before jacking up the front passenger side and removing the wheel.

6. Remove the plastic shield [10mm bolts] and undo the fill plug [24mm]

7. Refill the transmission using those plastic bottles containing the new ATF. I used a funnel with a length of plastic hose from above.

8. Lower the vehicle down to the measured ride height.

9. Start engine and cycle through P, R,N, D. Good idea to have the foot firmly pressed on the brake pedal so vehicle is stationery.

10. While engine is still running, undo the drain plug to drain any extra ATF until it just drips. 

11. Retighten the drain plug

11. Turn off engine and Add 200 ml of ATF.

12. Refit fill plug, plastic shield and the wheel.

End result was that 500ml of extra ATF was drained in contrast to the expected 200ml. Therefore transmission was overfilled by 300ml. Also the colour of this surplus drained ATF was not as dark as the used ATF but still noticably different to new ATF. I have plenty of ATF on hand so maybe I will plan for another pan drain in 6 months instead of 12 months.

As expected, the gear changes are smooth and barely noticable. What I have noticed is the engine revs dropping down to 1200 rpm more often when coasting along in gear with the foot off the accelerator. Something to keep monitoring over the next few days.

Looks like I have inadvertently found the upper overfill limit which obviously is not recommended. 

 

[ZZT86]

This reminds me that I will soon be doing my first Aurion ATM fluid dump/flush, just waiting for a bit more warmth whilst the car slowly creeps up to 60K kms.

I was also curious to ask if anyone had ever downloaded ATM fluid temps readings from OBD after a drive to gauge typical drive temp patterns ? I will be doing this soon as it warms up a bit just to see what the tramsmissions normal operating temp is & bechmarking it against the "Cadogan" theory above aswell as a table Ash has previously posted up on ATF change intervals vs usual expected run temps.

[Tony Prodigy]

8 hours ago, campbeam said:

As background, I have been doing a series of pan drains using a shortcut method of replacing the same amount of ATF drained plus a few extra mls without doing a precise fluid level check. I was suspecting that the transmission could be slightly overfull so a precise fluid level check was definitely required. I was also starting to be a bit more aware of the gear changes. This morning was a cool 14C when driving and the gear changes were absolutely smooth. Odometer reading was approx. 230,300kms and the last pan drain was probably October 2020.

Please note that I have totally deviated from the recommended ATF change procedure and done the following.

1. Car up on ramps and drain the ATF. Engine is turned off resulting in more ATF being in the pan.

2. Put used ATF into 2 x 1.5 litre bottles. 1 bottle is totally full and the 2nd bottle was more than 1/2 full.

3. Put new ATF into another 2 x 1.5 litre bottles with the same fill levels as the used ATF.

4. Refit the ATF fluid level plastic straw insert and the drain plug. Do not overtighten.

5. Vehicle is off the ramps and back on level driveway so time to measure the ride height [720mm on my vehicle] before jacking up the front passenger side and removing the wheel.

6. Remove the plastic shield [10mm bolts] and undo the fill plug [24mm]

7. Refill the transmission using those plastic bottles containing the new ATF. I used a funnel with a length of plastic hose from above.

8. Lower the vehicle down to the measured ride height.

9. Start engine and cycle through P, R,N, D. Good idea to have the foot firmly pressed on the brake pedal so vehicle is stationery.

10. While engine is still running, undo the drain plug to drain any extra ATF until it just drips. 

11. Retighten the drain plug

11. Turn off engine and Add 200 ml of ATF.

12. Refit fill plug, plastic shield and the wheel.

End result was that 500ml of extra ATF was drained in contrast to the expected 200ml. Therefore transmission was overfilled by 300ml. Also the colour of this surplus drained ATF was not as dark as the used ATF but still noticably different to new ATF. I have plenty of ATF on hand so maybe I will plan for another pan drain in 6 months instead of 12 months.

As expected, the gear changes are smooth and barely noticable. What I have noticed is the engine revs dropping down to 1200 rpm more often when coasting along in gear with the foot off the accelerator. Something to keep monitoring over the next few days.

Looks like I have inadvertently found the upper overfill limit which obviously is not recommended. 

 

Interesting. It's easy to inadvertently over fill it if the fluid temp isn't quite there. I have seen in some youtube videos where people use a laser temp gun, which I think is not the best way to check the fluid temp. The other method where they bridge the two points in the OBD II port and follow the Christmas tree lights in the dash cluster is another method I wouldn't be comfortable with despite being widely used in the U.S. 
Having a scan tool that can relay live data is preferred and can give more peace of mind I think. So for me, being somewhere in the middle at 42.5 deg C is fine enough. The 200ml extra compensates for the deviation within the 40-45 deg C scale.

These U660E's can be tempermental and you can usually tell by the way it behaves that something can be off, and the first thing to do would be to do a fluid level check. No dipstick on the U660E means that it needs a more precise measure as a fundamental means for it to operate at its optimum. Imagine if there was a dipstick ? There'd be chaos reported for sure. 

The biggest PIA is getting the car level both laterally and longitudinally. The rest is quite simple.

[campbeam]

I previously research for the co-efficient of expansion for ATF and did some calculations based upon 0.0008

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cubical-expansion-coefficients-d_1262.html

I have not worried too much about the fluid temperature but aware that the ATF gets to that 40-45C range quickly. Once you start a cold engine and cycle through the gears with a slow count of 10 in each gear, the ATF will be close to that temperature range particularly from an outside temp. of 20C Totally different matter when there is an 80C difference between 20C outside air temp and the ATF operating temp of 100C.

Past experience of issues with the gear changes have been more with underfilling the ATF using the fluid check of waiting until there was the series of broken drops. This is why I persisted with doing further online searches over about 3 months until I located that Toyota Service Bulletin with that extra 200ml of ATF to be done. I am more inclined to think that it is a compensating factor for the slight differences between transmissions to ensure smooth gear changes etc.

Main lesson learning is that using the shortcut method of replacing the same amount of drained ATF is a workaround only and adding that little bit extra each time can accumulate and result in the transmission being overfilled to an extent where optimal performance can start to be compromised. Definitely need to perform a reasonably accurate fluid level check to avoid the potential for that accumulated overfill situation.

 

[Tony Prodigy]

I'm going to do just a pan drain when it's due. I also want to go back to the original type pan gasket as opposed to the crappy cork one that came with the "kit". I think using cork is a downgrade on the stock original item. I didn't really think about this at the time.

I've aready purchased a Genuine Toyota pan gasket ( I even have the original stiil )and I will also consider putting the original strainer back in. Following my transmission service a while back, I peered inside it and found it to be perfectly clean, despite this, I went ahead and installed the aftermarket item. I bagged it up and stored it away for safe keeping and before putting it back I'll pass some ATF through it and see what comes out. If it's satisfactory, like I think it wil, I'll re use it. I think it's not necessary to replace unless the transmisson has had a hard life, neglected service with burnt fluid . Metallic particles will almost always end up on the pan magnet anyway right ?

[campbeam]

2 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

I'm going to do just a pan drain when it's due. I also want to go back to the original type pan gasket as opposed to the crappy cork one that came with the "kit". I think using cork is a downgrade on the stock original item. I didn't really think about this at the time.

I've aready purchased a Genuine Toyota pan gasket ( I even have the original stiil )and I will also consider putting the original strainer back in. Following my transmission service a while back, I peered inside it and found it to be perfectly clean, despite this, I went ahead and installed the aftermarket item. I bagged it up and stored it away for safe keeping and before putting it back I'll pass some ATF through it and see what comes out. If it's satisfactory, like I think it wil, I'll re use it. I think it's not necessary to replace unless the transmisson has had a hard life, neglected service with burnt fluid . Metallic particles will almost always end up on the pan magnet anyway right ?

Now you have got me thinking. I know that I replaced the original "strainer" at 160K on the odometer as a high priority maintenance item about 5-6 years ago. I will have to go check my maintenance records. I also kept the original "strainer" even though I bought 3 more aftermarket transmission filter kits. I might have to rethink the next transmission service and also drop the pan to replace the aftermarket transmission filter which has already done 70K. Otherwise, I would have been inclined to go back to the original Toyota "strainer" which presumably does not need to be replaced.

The very fine metallic particles associated with wear and tear should be caught by the pan magnets. Equivalent would be a metallic engine sump plug. Don't know enough to comment about unusual wear associated with larger metallic particles indicating a failed or failing component. You would expect these larger particles to get caught by the filter before getting into the valve body. Toyota transmission specialists will have the expertise and experience to diagnose these sort of issues of what is abnormal wear.

The advice of transmission shops is to regularly service the transmission to prevent costly repairs or failures.

[Tony Prodigy]

18 minutes ago, campbeam said:

I would have been inclined to go back to the original Toyota "strainer" which presumably does not need to be replaced.

Yeah, I'm thinking that it may be a false economy to have to "replace" it. If the fluid isn't chocolate syrup, all heavily gunked up and foul smelling, I would be happy to just keep the original strainer in. Mine was still fresh looking inside to be honest. The after market ones look to be a paper media as opposed to the Toyota one which is more like a mesh of sorts. Can't say what the media type is, but defintely not paper.

[Evgeniy]

Hi Tony, thank you very much for such a detailed description of oil change in Aurion's transmission. Please tell me: - is it necessarily to do a full flash of trans system? Some mechanics advised just to replace the oil which is in pan drain and put back same amount and same type of fluid back to transmission. Is it possible to drain the fluid from the pan by syphoning it from the filler hole? In this case there is no need to remove the pan at all. 

How the transmission in your car starts to behave after fluid and filter changed?  

Kind Regards, Eugene 

 

[Tony Prodigy]

1 hour ago, Evgeniy said:

Hi Tony, thank you very much for such a detailed description of oil change in Aurion's transmission.

My pleasure. I did the detailed write up especially for people like yourself and I'm happy it was of some use to you.

1 hour ago, Evgeniy said:

is it necessarily to do a full flash of trans system?

No, it's not necessary. The reason I did a full flush as because I was going to use the Penrite LV fluid and a pan drain would mean for me some Penrite and the rest Toyota's WS fluid. 
Me being the fussy person that I am, I didn't wan to mix up two brands of fluid. Either have on or the other, so that meant a full flush. Being a low mileage vehicle and a transmission in excellent order, a full flush was always possible.

The reason why some mechanics don't recommend a full flush, it's mainly aimed at  much older vehicles with high mileage. and by fully flushing the fluid, it can alter the behaviour of the transmission and slippage may occur between the bands. 

I'll explain. When an old transmission circulates old fluid, it usually carries around with it the debris from the clutches. Not a bad thing and not a good thing either, but things can still go wrong if the debris builds to a point where it clogs the filter an the valve body. So it has to be a gently, gently approach and by doing a pan drain, you are not removing the friction material circulating in the fluid on which the old clutches still rely on and you get to partly refresh the fluid pressures on which the transmission relies on. Usually at that stage it is inevitable the trans will either need an overhaul anyway.

So a well maintained and well cared for transmission can be either pan drained or fully flushed in my opinion. Just be weary of the higher miler units. Approach those gently.

1 hour ago, Evgeniy said:

Is it possible to drain the fluid from the pan by syphoning it from the filler hole? In this case there is no need to remove the pan at all. 

Not too sure, I haven't looked into the fill hole to see myself. I would strongly recommend taking the pan off to inspect for any metal filing captured by the pan magnets though. This will give you an opportunity to clean the pan and the magnets and replace the old pan gasket. I made the mistake of using a generic service kit, in that it had an after market fluid filter and a cork sump gasket. Cork is ok but doesn't stand up to the original Toyota gasket. I have since purchased one and is on standby for the next service, which will be a pan drain, because I know the fluid in mine is good following the previous flush. Mind you, my transmission, at the time, was carrying the original factory fill fluid. So now it is running the Penrite LV and will continue to use it.

1 hour ago, Evgeniy said:

How the transmission in your car starts to behave after fluid and filter changed? 

It drives as good as it ever has. Absolutely no change. I did the fluid change at 123K and it's now at approximately 142K and still drives like a new car.

Shifts are smooth and precise. I can honestly say that it's never put a foot wrong. Great car !

How many kays are on your Aurion and do you have a full service history ? More to the point, do you have history on the trans ?

Edited June 24, 2022 by Tony Prodigy

[Tony Prodigy]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:35 PM, AurionX2 said:

One thing: if I remember correctly the 200ml fluid top-up is done after finishing the fluid level check, during the flush is irrelevant because you'll follow up with the level check anyway.

 

On 10/18/2020 at 12:12 AM, campbeam said:

Yes, final step is to add the 200 ml after the fluid level check then refit the fill plug. I think that the top up can be an allowance/preventative measure if too much fluid has been drained while performing the fluid level check.

I believe Toyota initiated this bulletin because of the fact that some may drain a bit too much fluid as the fluid is continuing to expand and potentially have gone over the 45 degree mark. Doesn't take much to overshoot both if you're not paying attention and so the 200 ml will correct any discrepancy.

I'm not 100% sure, but if you try and do a fluid adjustment at say 40 degrees, you may not need the extra 200 ml. That's something that can be confirmed I guess in the test drive at which point if you experience any unusual shift patterns, then you can easily enough top it up and go from there.