FWD Driving Techniques

[tekkyy]

Some of it is contradictory to what you learn when going for your license i.e. don't drive with your shoes off, only use 1 foot in an automatic. All of that was thrown out the door at the training.

I would like to hear the argument for 2 foot auto driving. Last time there was a long debate at whirlpool and there wasn't a single good excuse given by the supporters.

Edited November 17, 2008 by tekkyy

[e240]

I would like to hear the argument for 2 foot auto driving. Last time there was a long debate at whirlpool and there wasn't a single good excuse given by the supporters.

2 feet driving is not encouraged because for the normal driver, their left foot is dead and don't have the sensitivities needed.

I alternate between left and right foot brake depending on the circumstances, and especially in the Aurion because of its tendencies to understeer on most corners. Its a skill you pickup, however interestingly, on the circuit, I hardly ever left foot brake potentially only turn 1 (left kink) on Oran Park GP, but thats a almost full throttle to the apex before braking and the car I use is setup differently as well.

Well, reading these 3 pages, it sounds like we're all ready for an Aurion day at Wakefield Park eh?

[notfromthere]

Some of it is contradictory to what you learn when going for your license i.e. don't drive with your shoes off, only use 1 foot in an automatic. All of that was thrown out the door at the training.

I would like to hear the argument for 2 foot auto driving. Last time there was a long debate at whirlpool and there wasn't a single good excuse given by the supporters.

I wonder if any of the guys at Whirlpool are defensive driving experts, maybe the 'supporters' should strengthen their case and call Jim Murcott's to set the record straight!

I don't see how a group of people could come to a conclusion that one way of doing something is better, it feels natural to me to drive that way and has most likely saved me from everything from wet roads to peak hour traffic incidents and kept my driving record in tact, barr the occasional speeding fine.

I would like to hear the argument for 2 foot auto driving. Last time there was a long debate at whirlpool and there wasn't a single good excuse given by the supporters.

2 feet driving is not encouraged because for the normal driver, their left foot is dead and don't have the sensitivities needed.

I alternate between left and right foot brake depending on the circumstances, and especially in the Aurion because of its tendencies to understeer on most corners. Its a skill you pickup, however interestingly, on the circuit, I hardly ever left foot brake potentially only turn 1 (left kink) on Oran Park GP, but thats a almost full throttle to the apex before braking and the car I use is setup differently as well.

Well, reading these 3 pages, it sounds like we're all ready for an Aurion day at Wakefield Park eh?

It was encouraged at Jim Murcotts Defensive driving school that with some practice a person would become quicker if they are required to brake. Their argument was that the split second difference between moving your right foot to the left then jumping on the brake hard as opposed to having your left foot at the ready could prove the difference. For me personally i have always used left foot braking as i used to own a Chev Silverado and after the conversion from LHD to RHD the brake and accelerator pedals were positioned more to the left so it was do or die. It would be the same on a motorbike as everyone is used to pulling hard on the clutch but if reversed (inc. throttle) it would be a hard adjustment at the start but something you would get used to. It was really only applicable to auto's but i assumed that was a given. Everyone has their own preferences and as e240 mentioned 'especially in the Aurion because of its tendencies to understeer on most corners. Its a skill you pickup'...

[tekkyy]

Their argument was that the split second difference between moving your right foot to the left then jumping on the brake hard as opposed to having your left foot at the ready could prove the difference.

Yeah but to get rid of the split second difference wouldn't you have to keep your left foot on the brakes?

Doesn't that lead to worn out brake and brake light always on?

Or if you don't let the weight of your left foot fully sit on the brakes, then would that tire your left foot?

Your brain can only execute one command at a time, so what happens to the delay in lifting the gas? (the delay being the delay that doesn't exist in right foot braking)

[e240]

I think I need to clarify when I use left foot braking. Its not to stop the car or in any emergency situation. I use left foot braking to balance the car out when needed in cornering. When I left foot brake, I am always still on the accelerator and accelerating.

Unless you're really skilled in it, left foot braking in a emergency stop situation is a big no no. If you don't have a VERY HIGH degree of control of your left foot, all you're going to do is slam your foot down with no hope of recovery. A typical driver already cannot control the right foot slam on the brake in an emergency, what makes you think you can then control a left foot brake in an emergency?

Many people think because they can control their left foot because they've done it a few times, had some advance driver training about it, blah blah blah (also, we all tend to think we're better drivers than others) but really, they are just kidding themselves.

The most important thing to consider, and the only thing to consider is not whats written in the textbook, or prescribed by some so called advance driving school, rather, its about what you are most comfortable with doing and have been doing with some degree of skill (unless of course its blatently wrong)

Edited November 18, 2008 by e240

[notfromthere]

Yeah but to get rid of the split second difference wouldn't you have to keep your left foot on the brakes?

Doesn't that lead to worn out brake and brake light always on?

Or if you don't let the weight of your left foot fully sit on the brakes, then would that tire your left foot?

Your brain can only execute one command at a time, so what happens to the delay in lifting the gas? (the delay being the delay that doesn't exist in right foot braking)

Maybe some people just don't have the skill. The time difference is minimal, I know that moving my left foot off the floor and applying the brake is quicker than moving my right foot across because i have conditioned myself to do it. My left foot (sounds like a movie) isn't constantly hovering over the brake pedal, only in peak hour traffic and certain road conditions where stopping and starting is consistent. Mind you, I'd rather blow a brake light than hit someone or hurt myself or other people in my car who aren't expecting it. It's a personal choice and one that i have taken on board from what i learnt and as mentioned has gotten me out of some sticky situations.

Unless you're really skilled in it, left foot braking in a emergency stop situation is a big no no. If you don't have a VERY HIGH degree of control of your left foot, all you're going to do is slam your foot down with no hope of recovery. A typical driver already cannot control the right foot slam on the brake in an emergency, what makes you think you can then control a left foot brake in an emergency?

lmao @ very high degree of control in your left foot. It doesn't take super human effort to learn it, what they were teaching is that with practice people can become accustomed to it. What they actually teach you is you don't slam your foot down anyways, it is a constant pressure applied until the brake pedal is fully depressed which stops a car quicker than 'slamming your foot down' and more people should know this but the problem arises in that a lot of people lose all sense of brain function when confronted with a possible accident. It controls my car in an emergency, even allowing me to steer out of danger and guess what, all that using my left foot...

Edited November 18, 2008 by notfromthere

[e240]

Well, maybe you're special ok. 90% of other drivers (and myself included) would probably just slam on the brakes with our left foot with the right foot still planted on the accelerator in an emergency situation.

If it works for you, do it, but there is no "one better than the other", but if push comes to a shove, I'd say braking the normal way is safer for most drivers.

lmao @ very high degree of control in your left foot. It doesn't take super human effort to learn it, what they were teaching is that with practice people can become accustomed to it. What they actually teach you is you don't slam your foot down anyways, it is a constant pressure applied until the brake pedal is fully depressed which stops a car quicker than 'slamming your foot down' and more people should know this but the problem arises in that a lot of people lose all sense of brain function when confronted with a possible accident. It controls my car in an emergency, even allowing me to steer out of danger and guess what, all that using my left foot...

[notfromthere]

Well, maybe you're special ok. 90% of other drivers (and myself included) would probably just slam on the brakes with our left foot with the right foot still planted on the accelerator in an emergency situation.

If it works for you, do it, but there is no "one better than the other", but if push comes to a shove, I'd say braking the normal way is safer for most drivers.

Nothing to do with being special at all ok. I would hate to think that 90% of drivers would leave their foot on the accelerator whilst braking with their left in an emergency, it seems like a sixth sense to stop accelerating. I agree that braking the normal way is safer for most drivers but these defensive driving courses do actually help, and as mentioned in post# 43, there were guys who thought they were gods gift to motoring who learnt more in one day than they had in years of driving. They are called defensive driving courses for a reason and it comes down to the person attending on how much they take out of them. Sadly enough it works the other way where there guys there talking about how they go around speeding and because of what they learnt thought they were indestructible on the roads. There was talk of making learner drivers compulsorily attend these courses as part of obtaining their provisional license as well as a drink driving course. Anyway, my wife does it now so it can't be too hard for someone who hasn't get enough co-ordination to drive a manual...

[DJKOR]

Back onto that topic of VSC, I thought I'll post another word or two. So backtracking to before when I was 'testing' it, the one key thing about all that was that it was intentional. I entered each scenario knowing exactly what was going to happen (or meant to happen). When you are prepared for such situations, it's easy to recover. When your car loses traction unexpectedly, things get rather interesting. So cut to earlier this evening.

I was firstly on my way to the meet (well on my way to Albion Station regardless) and as I was travelling down the Pacific Motorway at the assigned speed limit of 100km/h and it was raining quite heavily. I slowed down to about 90-95km/h as the rain got heavier. I was travelling right next to some 4WD going about the same speed. All of a sudden I feel the steering get light and can feel the car drifting to the left slightly and the VSC light was flashing. My first reaction was to hit the brakes, but only lightly to reduce my speed. Since the VSC was working madly, just a light press of the brakes gave off the ABS pulsating feel. The car was slowing down though, and since I didn't feel so safe next to this 4WD I moved over to the far right lane. This lane change was absolutely perfect regardless of the fact that I still had my foot lightly on the brake and the pedal was vibrating rapidly.

Next was on my way back from the station. Travelling down the Western Freeway, on the recommended speed limit of 90km/h (rain had reduced to a drizzle), I ran over a slightly flooded section of road. This was a pretty serious scenario because it was on a really slight curve and I had my wheels turned very slightly. Next thing, I feel the whole car just slip out of place, and my knowledge of not forcefully correcting the car when VSC is working just went out the window. So I enter a funny side to side swerve (just like the one in the traction control symbol, or those yellow road signs) and next thing I hit my brakes lightly (the pedal was pulsating rapidly) and the chaos subsides. I didn't leave the lane at all during this short experience which was very good. Had I have had no VSC; lets just say at 90km/h, both lanes would have been needed just to recover... if I could have.

So VSC is a good feature to have and may help save your a** one day. And what have I learnt about this whole traction control experience. If you know defensive driving skills and am able to utilise it in a panic situation, then there is no harm in doing so with VSC active. You might find though that the car won't recover exactly as you may be hoping and may require a little 'back and forward' correction. If you don't know defensive driving skills and have VSC, if you enter a tricky situation, just steer the car in such a way the keeps it pointed in the direction that you are heading. One thing that will really help as well is by using your brakes when you start to lose it. It may seem like the wrong thing to do, but the ABS will prevent it from locking up and it will slow you car down. By slowing it down, you reduce the severity of the situation.

All that, plus I need some better tires. Michelin Energy is a good all round tire, but I'm not satisfied with it's performance in the wet. On another side note, 8000k HID's are hopeless in the wet; though I've mentioned this already. I could barely see the flooded sections of road until I was nearly over it. If you are going for 8000k HID's, try and put good quality halogens into your fog lights and use them in the wet. The more yellow in the fog light the better the vision.

[lateralus]

Next was on my way back from the station. Travelling down the Western Freeway, on the recommended speed limit of 90km/h (rain had reduced to a drizzle), I ran over a slightly flooded section of road. This was a pretty serious scenario because it was on a really slight curve and I had my wheels turned very slightly.

All that, plus I need some better tires. Michelin Energy is a good all round tire, but I'm not satisfied with it's performance in the wet.

someone sounded a little overconfident...

if you were a sensible driver, you wouldn't be going through a flooded bend at 90km/h.

[DJKOR]

Next was on my way back from the station. Travelling down the Western Freeway, on the recommended speed limit of 90km/h (rain had reduced to a drizzle), I ran over a slightly flooded section of road. This was a pretty serious scenario because it was on a really slight curve and I had my wheels turned very slightly.

All that, plus I need some better tires. Michelin Energy is a good all round tire, but I'm not satisfied with it's performance in the wet.

someone sounded a little overconfident...

if you were a sensible driver, you wouldn't be going through a flooded bend at 90km/h.

But I'm not sensible. Anyways, this road has good drainage and is never a problem. The storm must have blocked up the drain. The minor flooding of the road could not be seen due to bad lighting. The curve is only minor as well, ie. I can easily take it at 160km/h. Anyways, we're not discussing my driving, we're discussing the possible worse case scenario that may happen. We all know my driving is questionable.

[JIN]

Ew...A big argument is going in this thread.

Let me explain a bit about using both feet in driving is not recommended.

Here are some reasons, that I know, why accelator and brake pedals are placed on same side normally on right hand side.

Those two pedals make contrast actions that one of them makes the car moving and the other makes the car stops or slows down.

Therefore, those two pedals do not need to be pressed together at the same time UNLESS if you're in some specific cases such as racing.

The risk of putting left foot on brake pedal is that, if you are in some cases like you need to stop SUDDENLY or any unexpected situations of having accident, general ppl normally push the both pedals very deeply and quickly and this causes decrease in the eficiency of braking and the stopping distance would be longer than pushsing only brake pedal.

The reason of using both pedals in racing is that(Just a real rough idea), when racers do the cornering, they try to make the engine rpm high with slowing down so they can re-accelate quicker once they escape the corner and this is called hill and toe skill in racing driving.

However, they never use left foot for braking, they only use right foot for accel and brake pedal, and left foot is only for clutch.

*I've never seen anyone using left foot for braking in manual transmission driving.*

Because, GENERALLY, in most cases, ordinary ppl are better with using their right foot to control the pedals rather than using left foot because ppl can control more seneitivly and effectively the pedals with right foot than left foot. Of course, there are some different ppl around of us, who are uncomfortable to use their right foot but I guess they are only few.

To sum up, there are no static rules that you only have to use right foot to drive a car.

However, I could say that it is safer to use only right foot for driving in A/T.

Maybe you are more familiar to use left foot for braking but you CANNOT push ppl to do the same thing, because the driving technique directly connects to someone's safety and even their lives.

I personally do not want to see anyone having accidents because of using both feet during driving.

[e240]

Jin, regarding left foot braking and the typical driver, I agree with your points as thats the same point I'm making. I just could not be bothered continuing.

Just a small clarification

The reason of using both pedals in racing is that(Just a real rough idea), when racers do the cornering, they try to make the engine rpm high with slowing down so they can re-accelate quicker once they escape the corner and this is called hill and toe skill in racing driving.

However, they never use left foot for braking, they only use right foot for accel and brake pedal, and left foot is only for clutch.

*I've never seen anyone using left foot for braking in manual transmission driving.*

Left foot braking is not Heel/Toe. Very different, and its not so much to keep RPM high.

"Racers" tend to left foot brake in a FWD because a front wheel drive ends to understeer, in a corner, the inside tends to lift and weight transfers out. By keeping some pressure on the brakes, with most cars being front bias, it helps pull the weight down on the front reducing understeer.

There are other reasons especially in Rallying but those cars have brake bias adjusters and the purpose and technique is just a bit different from a normal car/circuit car.

I left foot brake in my car with manual transmission for the above reasons, but never to come to a stop though or an emergency stop.

[tekkyy]

the foot rest is for you to put your left foot there, all the time

to balance yourself in sudden braking and collisions

I use left foot braking to balance the car out when needed in cornering. When I left foot brake, I am always still on the accelerator and accelerating.

interesting, what are the benefits of accelerating and braking at the same time?

how does it balance the car?

Maybe some people just don't have the skill. The time difference is minimal

the argument for left foot braking is the time difference

if the time difference is minimal, then to me there is no benefit to left foot braking

Mind you, I'd rather blow a brake light than hit someone or hurt myself or other people in my car who aren't expecting it.

no it should make no difference to brake light frequency or duration in your implemenation, since you left your left foot on the floor

in the other implementation people rest their left foot on brake, the brake light stays on and thats stupid and dangerous

What they actually teach you is you don't slam your foot down anyways, it is a constant pressure applied until the brake pedal is fully depressed which stops a car quicker than 'slamming your foot down' and more people should know this

you kidding right?

man I hope these advanced driving instructors are keeping up to date with new technologies in the brake system and tyres

NRMA open road mag just had a dig at parents teaching their kids to pump the brakes, etc old school techniques

There was talk of making learner drivers compulsorily attend these courses as part of obtaining their provisional license

I am pretty sure they were not referring to the controversial courses like left foot braking

Here are some reasons, that I know, why accelator and brake pedals are placed on same side normally on right hand side.

and note to left foot braking fans

you are not using the tool the way it is designed for

I hope you don't hurt anyone

Edited November 21, 2008 by tekkyy

[lateralus]

NRMA open road mag just had a dig at parents teaching their kids to pump the brakes, etc old school techniques

on newer vehicles with abs or ebd, that would apply. but on older vehicles (which a lot of kids start off in), it is better to pump the brake quickly, or 'cadence braking' as it is sometimes called. but i mean QUICKLY, not on-off in 1 second sort of thing. it is a defensive driving technique of older cars. either that, or threshold braking where you keep your foot almost on the verge of the brakes locking up, but that takes a little more intimate knowledge of your own car to figure out what is best.

but yeah, in modern cars the most effective way to brake is to keep it at a contact pressure due to the electronics doing all the work for you.

[Adrian]

Hay, does any one know how many times a second the ABS cuts in an out in a potential lockup in the Aurion ?

In the driving courses they do teach you to break with your left foot and it does feel un-natural at first, and is not the final solution, it's used for a situation. They use it to cover the breaks if you think that there may be a potential incident. That split second can save metres in the end result.

Pumping breaks was good in the older cars, but you need to be a profesional to use it effectively in a emergency situation. As mentioned before, constant presure just before the lockup is the best. Putting breaks on sooner rather than later is my choice.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Adrian

[maliqnguyen@live.com.au]

i tried drifting on a turn while it was raining, i turned at about 50kms hit the handbrake tapped the steering wheel right and the car just went into a spin out haha

[DJKOR]

Hay, does any one know how many times a second the ABS cuts in an out in a potential lockup in the Aurion ?

An ABS module can cycle up to 12 to 15 cycles per second depending on the manufacturer. That is definitely quite fast.

[Supercharged TRD]

Just a quick link which describes how the VSC system in the Aurions and Camrys work:

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/206114/689691

[MT]

I think everyone in this thread except for e240 has missed the point of left foot braking completely.

Left foot braking is not recommended by anyone for use on the road. Simple reason - because 99% of drivers dont have the skill or precision to use their left foot comfortably. Its all in the way we are used to driving - all mind control. Left foot is used simply to push the clutch in and out, whereas the right foot is used for accelerating and braking which requires far more sensitivity. A normal driver would just slam their left foot on the brake causing more problems. Here's a simple test - try pushing the clutch in with your right foot. Its no where near as easy, I would bet $20 first time the clutch wont go in the whole way.

Left foot braking is only useful as a skill to control a front wheel drive or 4 wheel drive car whilst cornering at high speeds, for the reason that e240 stated above. front wheel drive cars want to want to understeer when they are cornering on the limit, however if you back off whilst on this limit, the car whill oversteer uncontrollably. you use left foot braking to transfer weight forward to the front wheels to balance the car between understeer and oversteer. And the technique used (by me and most others as instructed by championship winning rally drivers) is to use the brake gently... just dip it in and out very gently several times.

As a four wheel drive car handles more like a FWD than a RWD, the benefit is similar to above.

There u go.. nothing to do with space or heel and toeing!!

[DJKOR]

I wasn't part of this whole left foot braking discussion, but I thought I may add my two cents as well. The only thing you left foot should do on any car is either operate the clutch, or sit on the foot rest... or in the case of the Aurion, engage and disengage the park brake. Your car is not a go-kart. If you have a look at how the pedals sit, they are biased towards the right. If you put your feet together in the centre, you will find that you right foot should sit close to centred on the brake pedal and your left foot should only barely touch it if it does.

This is because... wait.... your right foot does the braking. It's comfortable to move you foot outwards, so that's why the brake sits there as well. If you had to use your left foot, it puts minor strain on your ankle and that would be a first sign that something isn't right. In regards to the time taken to take you foot off the accelerator and place it on the brake, it is not overly massive, and in most cases is not a problem. Plus as well, if you were trying to argue it by saying you should have you left foot hovering above the brake, then I don't know how on earth you drive comfortably. If your left foot is on the foot rest when not in use, then the reaction time would probably be slower than by using your right foot.

Anyways, I don't know how you guys drive, but my most comfortable position is having my heel sitting just off centre to the left of the brake pedal and I use the front part of my foot for the accelerator. In that position I can switch from accelerator to brake without my heel leaving the floor. Seems fast enough for me.

[Ascendant Rice]

off topic. how does the aurion spark brake work?

[DJKOR]

off topic. how does the aurion spark brake work?

Put your foot on and boom!

Nah, it's just an alternative to the handbrake. It's lever that is depressed with your foot and it ratchets in and locks. To release, you push it in slightly and bring your foot back. Sits around the same area as a clutch would, only a little higher.

When I go drive another car, out of habit I move my foot in a motion to disengage/engage a foot brake that is not there. Quite an awkward feeling.

[e240]

I try and do footbrake turns but can never release the footbrake in time quite you can with a handbrake and always end up spinning more than I want....quite embarrassing actually...

Quite an awkward feeling.