NEED HELP ON LOWERING INFO ABOUT RUBBING

[BONDIE]

Hey guys, just putting it out there to anyone to see if anyone has had the same problem.

I have 20inch x 8.5 rims running on a 245/35/20 and i just got my car lowered with Pedders sports ryder springs.

Problem is i picked the vehicle up and it drives fine, but any slight dips in the road the tyres rub on the plastic inner guard. I looked underneath and the inner plastic guard has a lump/lip where its rubbing.

It shouldnt do my tyres any damage as it should just wear down the plastic eventually. But does make me cringe when i hear the scraping noise. No panels are touching though - thank ***!

Im thinking, i can let it go and see if the plastic wears down, or i could get underneath and cut away the lip on the innerguards. Or if no one else has had the same problem, take it back to pedders and say what the F***K.

Has anyone else with 20inch and pedders lowering experienced this. If not i might take it back to pedders, maybey they installed them wrong.

I seen some past forums on this site, but you guys have 19"s on your cars, but should be the same as all our vehicles should have the same tyre rolling diametre. Have you guys had any problems?

I do have a ATX though, and maybey the inner guards on the ATX are different to the other models?

Its a bit annoying, can anyone help me out, any info would be apreciated.

Cheers

Bondie.

[beaves]

The tyres will "wear" before your plastic guard does. You need to sort it out ASAP as you don't want to make your tyres unsafe. Me personaly, i think you should have gone for 18's or 19's, 20's are too big if you want to lower the car as well. Your ride comfort will be pretty ordinary I would have thought with that combo.

Edited May 5, 2008 by beaves

[dannywss]

picture please, and a pic of inside the tyre(to show the gap left).. it might be too late, but a change of spring might solve the problem..

[linzz82]

Did you get camber pins fitted? When i had my corolla lowered at pedders they recommended camber pins. Don't know if that would make a diff. As they can't set the camber properly apparently.

[dannywss]

always legal or not, to increase any rim more than 2 inch, you have much much more possibilities to face these problems.. go back to pedders, say in a nice way that there is this problem, see if they are willing to help u sort out what solution you have. If they cant do anything, then i recon u can try change the spring to low profile(not super low) king spring, see if you have same result.

245/35 is the lowest you can go, so u cant work out from the tyre now.

The driving must be rough hey?

picture please~ then we can know more from there.

[BONDIE]

always legal or not, to increase any rim more than 2 inch, you have much much more possibilities to face these problems.. go back to pedders, say in a nice way that there is this problem, see if they are willing to help u sort out what solution you have. If they cant do anything, then i recon u can try change the spring to low profile(not super low) king spring, see if you have same result.

245/35 is the lowest you can go, so u cant work out from the tyre now.

The driving must be rough hey?

picture please~ then we can know more from there.

I know what you mean, sort of same problems when i jumped up to 22"s on my holden captiva, the bigger wheels would cause rubbing on the guard. But with this problem, dont know much about suspension.

Cheers mate thanks for the info, your right, Im going to make a appointment to see them on the weekend. I can be very persuasive when i need to be, and im sure they will be sympathetic to my needs and we will reach a solution.

I think once we shave off the node/lump/raise in the plastic inner guard, it should be fine.

Apart from this problem - the ride is quite comfy and good, and there isnt much difference from when i put the spings in. Its only when i drive though a dip, the car drops and makes a scuff noise as the wheel hits the plastic, and it that makes me cringe. But if i drive over a speed bump its fine.....its weird.

Im just gonna look behind the guard to make sure the node isnt shaped to protect something behind it (like something metal), because then i would be up **** creek and f**k me, who knows what i will do then.

Cheers again.

Bondie

Edited May 6, 2008 by BONDIE

[BONDIE]

The tyres will "wear" before your plastic guard does. You need to sort it out ASAP as you don't want to make your tyres unsafe. Me personaly, i think you should have gone for 18's or 19's, 20's are too big if you want to lower the car as well. Your ride comfort will be pretty ordinary I would have thought with that combo.

Cheers, im going to try and shave off the lump on the inner guard and see how i go. But till then im just going to drive my other car. The ride is still pretty good actually, its only on dips when it scuffs and it sounds bad. But speed bumps are fine, and is normal road driving. But i planned for that when I put a softer low profile tire on, so it would smoothe out the ride.

Hopefully shaving off the lump helps.

Thanks

Bondie.

Edited May 6, 2008 by BONDIE

[beaves]

good luck with it anyways mate. Chuck some photos in here so we can have a gander.......

[Dead]

Large wheels + lowering will usually always = scrubbing, unless the guards are already pumped from the factory.

The fully sik uleh's have methods on fitting those large, oversized wok rims on their fully fully fully fully omg omg cars. It involves rolling the hell out of the guard, but if it's the liner that's the main issue, you'd need to box your guards a little as well (which involves plastic welding, an interesting niche trade).

You can always raise the height, but I know how it feels to have your ride low. It does look the tits.

Also you could always put 19's on there, they'd still look somewhat big and you could maybe lower it even more then.

They'd be your options though, speaking realistically.

[BONDIE]

good luck with it anyways mate. Chuck some photos in here so we can have a gander.......

Thanks mate, ill chuck some photos in in a couple of days when i have a half a day at work and the sun is still out.

bondie

[BONDIE]

Large wheels + lowering will usually always = scrubbing, unless the guards are already pumped from the factory.

The fully sik uleh's have methods on fitting those large, oversized wok rims on their fully fully fully fully omg omg cars. It involves rolling the hell out of the guard, but if it's the liner that's the main issue, you'd need to box your guards a little as well (which involves plastic welding, an interesting niche trade).

You can always raise the height, but I know how it feels to have your ride low. It does look the tits.

Also you could always put 19's on there, they'd still look somewhat big and you could maybe lower it even more then.

They'd be your options though, speaking realistically.

Awesome thanks for the info, If shaving off the lip in the plastic inside guard, doesnt work, i might have to go see one of those plastic welders, for some custom work. Its only the plastic inside guard that is rubbing and apart from driving over dips, the car drives and feels well. I didnt want to fully remove the plastic inside guards, as moisture all the road sh*t will spit up into the motor. So i will do everything my wallet will allow me to do, so i can keep it lowered with the 20"s.

Cheers for the info -

[v8toy]

mines got 18's and it scrubs aswell with lowered pedders srings the rolling diameter of the wheel/tyre combo is same as standard and it only scrubs with bumps and dips like u say and mainly when my bike trailer is hooked on but good on general driving at the end of the day its one of those things u get when u modify a car and the only fix is more mods yippe lol

[DavoP]

The tyres will "wear" before your plastic guard does. You need to sort it out ASAP as you don't want to make your tyres unsafe. Me personaly, i think you should have gone for 18's or 19's, 20's are too big if you want to lower the car as well. Your ride comfort will be pretty ordinary I would have thought with that combo.

Cheers, im going to try and shave off the lump on the inner guard and see how i go. But till then im just going to drive my other car. The ride is still pretty good actually, its only on dips when it scuffs and it sounds bad. But speed bumps are fine, and is normal road driving. But i planned for that when I put a softer low profile tire on, so it would smoothe out the ride.

Hopefully shaving off the lump helps.

Thanks

Bondie.

A softer lower profile tyre? And I'm not real sure that the tyre will wear b4 the inner guard does ... anyway IMO I think it's got a lot to do with the softer spring the ATX has in it. Mine, a ZR6 on the same section width and profile but 19", does not rub at all. I have had ppl in the back and driven as normal with none of the rubbing happening. If your wallet alows I'd be considering changing the shock/struts which will also firm it up a bit which you may not like ... just my two bobs worths :) I'm sure it looks the part .. and looking forward to seeing some pics

[BONDIE]

mines got 18's and it scrubs aswell with lowered pedders srings the rolling diameter of the wheel/tyre combo is same as standard and it only scrubs with bumps and dips like u say and mainly when my bike trailer is hooked on but good on general driving at the end of the day its one of those things u get when u modify a car and the only fix is more mods yippe lol

"My guard scubbing brother from another mother", atleast im not the only one in this boat floating down sh*t creek river. Hey, is your plastic slowly wearing away. Mine has worn away somewhat and my tyres still seem fine. Im just hoping that once i shave off some, it will be enough clearance to stop the scrubbing, without having to supply a mod for my mod. ha ha.

Cheers mate

Bondie

Edited May 7, 2008 by BONDIE

[BONDIE]

The tyres will "wear" before your plastic guard does. You need to sort it out ASAP as you don't want to make your tyres unsafe. Me personaly, i think you should have gone for 18's or 19's, 20's are too big if you want to lower the car as well. Your ride comfort will be pretty ordinary I would have thought with that combo.

Cheers, im going to try and shave off the lump on the inner guard and see how i go. But till then im just going to drive my other car. The ride is still pretty good actually, its only on dips when it scuffs and it sounds bad. But speed bumps are fine, and is normal road driving. But i planned for that when I put a softer low profile tire on, so it would smoothe out the ride.

Hopefully shaving off the lump helps.

Thanks

Bondie.

A softer lower profile tyre? And I'm not real sure that the tyre will wear b4 the inner guard does ... anyway IMO I think it's got a lot to do with the softer spring the ATX has in it. Mine, a ZR6 on the same section width and profile but 19", does not rub at all. I have had ppl in the back and driven as normal with none of the rubbing happening. If your wallet alows I'd be considering changing the shock/struts which will also firm it up a bit which you may not like ... just my two bobs worths :) I'm sure it looks the part .. and looking forward to seeing some pics

I know... I know "a softer lower profile tyre" sounds like a oxymoron. But what i meant was to say a more softer tyre than some of the other low profile tyres out there. In my past experiences with low profile tyre brands, some are harder, some are noiser etc etc. Your right, the inner guard has alread started to wear down considerably from last weeks driving, and my tyres still seem fine. Thanks for the info, ill put those questions to Pedders about the springs and shocks/stuts, and will endevour to get you guys some pics this weekend. Hopefully after this weekend ill will be smilling with two thumbs up = lowered car with no scrubbing noise, "And thats what dreams are made of" ha ha, well for me lately - anyway.

Thanks mate

Bondie

[argie]

Hi There: i'm not an expert but i would like to give you some feedback on that. IMO you are having offset issues. what i mean it when you install 18" or 19" they are generally 7.5 or 8" wide. when you jump from 17x7 with 45 offset as per std sportivo wheel to something like 8.5 wide, your offsert needs to be around 27-28 so your "new" wheel doesn't rub on the inside. literally speaking, you "new" wheels needs to go to an outer position (sticking out more) so it doesn't rub on the inside since it is 1.5" wider than the original.

please look at this link about offset calculator and the pic in it for you to understand what i mean.

OFFSET CALCULATOR WEBSITE

I hope this makes sense and didn't confuse you too much.

the note bellow is from the RTA website in Nsw. based on that you can jump from 17x7 to ANY sizex8 as long as you play with + or - 15mm in the overall diameter.

PDF document name: VSI09 Rev4 Nov 2003

Wheeltrack and wheel offset

Wheeltrack is the distance between your car’s wheels; it is measured between the rim centrelines.

If you fit wider wheels you will probably increase wheeltrack and this is usually associated with a change in

wheel offset increasing the loads on bearings, axles, suspension joints and steering tie rods.

Wheels

As a general rule, it is recommended you only fit wheels and tyres that are listed on the tyre placard or in the

owner’s handbook. These have been tested and proved for your car.

Sometimes the range of wheels listed by the manufacturer may appear to be limited. While it is recommended

that you only fit these wheels, the RTA does not oppose the fitting of wheels outside the range providing they are

safe for the vehicle.

An important requirement for all replacement wheels is that the wheel track must not be increased by more than

25mm beyond the maximum specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.

Where non original axle or suspension components are fitted, the offset of the wheel in relation to the axle or stub

axle assembly used shall not be increased by more than 12.5mm each side of the vehicle based on the specifications

of the axle components used. If an axle assembly is shortened then the track width limit is taken as the axle

manufacturers original track dimension, less the amount the assembly has been narrowed, plus 25mm.

If you are contemplating fitting non original axle or suspension components you should seek the guidance of a

signatory as engineering certification will be required (see page 3).

Minor changes to wheels

Wheels up to 26mm wider than the largest optional wheel recommended by the vehicle manufacturer for the

vehicle can be fitted without the need to notify the RTA.

The outside diameter of the wheel and tyre combination must be no more than 15mm over the largest diameter

wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle and not more than 15mm below the smallest diameter wheel

and tyre combination specified for the vehicle..

let us know the outcome.

[mkay]

With 20" wheels the increase in overall wheel diameter is less then 12mm (6mm each side) over standard, not enough to cause a problem.

The scrubbing of the inner gaurds is because the rims are wider, so the outer edge of the tyre scrubs the inner guard. I have 20"x8.5" rims with 245/35 tyres fitted, had it lowered and had the same problem so stuck the original spings back in. I recently drove from Darwin to Perth with the ORIGINAL springs fitted, cargo of one passenger and around 120kg of luggage in the boot and on the rear seat. The road was not all that rough but the odd dip in the road still caused it to scrub and it DID wear a hole through both rear inner gaurds. I have some rub marks on the front inners too (The tyres where fine). I think any size rim (18, 19, 20 etc) will have similar problems with a 245 or larger tyre fitted.

Read more here about my initial lowering problem.

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/inde...mp;#entry202521

And as for the comfort factor, theres absolutely no noticable difference in ride comfort between the 17' and the 20's in my opinion.

Mine will stay at standard height, it doesn't look too bad now that the springs have sagged a little bid.

Edited May 8, 2008 by mkay

[BONDIE]

Hi There: i'm not an expert but i would like to give you some feedback on that. IMO you are having offset issues. what i mean it when you install 18" or 19" they are generally 7.5 or 8" wide. when you jump from 17x7 with 45 offset as per std sportivo wheel to something like 8.5 wide, your offsert needs to be around 27-28 so your "new" wheel doesn't rub on the inside. literally speaking, you "new" wheels needs to go to an outer position (sticking out more) so it doesn't rub on the inside since it is 1.5" wider than the original.

please look at this link about offset calculator and the pic in it for you to understand what i mean.

OFFSET CALCULATOR WEBSITE

I hope this makes sense and didn't confuse you too much.

the note bellow is from the RTA website in Nsw. based on that you can jump from 17x7 to ANY sizex8 as long as you play with + or - 15mm in the overall diameter.

PDF document name: VSI09 Rev4 Nov 2003

Wheeltrack and wheel offset

Wheeltrack is the distance between your car’s wheels; it is measured between the rim centrelines.

If you fit wider wheels you will probably increase wheeltrack and this is usually associated with a change in

wheel offset increasing the loads on bearings, axles, suspension joints and steering tie rods.

Wheels

As a general rule, it is recommended you only fit wheels and tyres that are listed on the tyre placard or in the

owner’s handbook. These have been tested and proved for your car.

Sometimes the range of wheels listed by the manufacturer may appear to be limited. While it is recommended

that you only fit these wheels, the RTA does not oppose the fitting of wheels outside the range providing they are

safe for the vehicle.

An important requirement for all replacement wheels is that the wheel track must not be increased by more than

25mm beyond the maximum specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.

Where non original axle or suspension components are fitted, the offset of the wheel in relation to the axle or stub

axle assembly used shall not be increased by more than 12.5mm each side of the vehicle based on the specifications

of the axle components used. If an axle assembly is shortened then the track width limit is taken as the axle

manufacturers original track dimension, less the amount the assembly has been narrowed, plus 25mm.

If you are contemplating fitting non original axle or suspension components you should seek the guidance of a

signatory as engineering certification will be required (see page 3).

Minor changes to wheels

Wheels up to 26mm wider than the largest optional wheel recommended by the vehicle manufacturer for the

vehicle can be fitted without the need to notify the RTA.

The outside diameter of the wheel and tyre combination must be no more than 15mm over the largest diameter

wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle and not more than 15mm below the smallest diameter wheel

and tyre combination specified for the vehicle..

let us know the outcome.

I figured it was something to do with the offset. But as the rims are paid for (about 3k) then im gonna have to work around it. I think, re-shaping the guards will be the first step, if that doesnt work, maybey custom guards, if thats not accessible, ive got the old springs and will have to put them in, as it didnt scrub with the standard springs in.

Thanks for the info, and the attachments. I tell you what, i learnt so much about this vehilce since i joined this forum, its amazing, the vast types of knowledge out there about this vehicle.

Thanks for the info.

Bondie.

Edited May 8, 2008 by BONDIE

[BONDIE]

With 20" wheels the increase in overall wheel diameter is less then 12mm (6mm each side) over standard, not enough to cause a problem.

The scrubbing of the inner gaurds is because the rims are wider, so the outer edge of the tyre scrubs the inner guard. I have 20"x8.5" rims with 245/35 tyres fitted, had it lowered and had the same problem so stuck the original spings back in. I recently drove from Darwin to Perth with the ORIGINAL springs fitted, cargo of one passenger and around 120kg of luggage in the boot and on the rear seat. The road was not all that rough but the odd dip in the road still caused it to scrub and it DID wear a hole through both rear inner gaurds. I have some rub marks on the front inners too (The tyres where fine). I think any size rim (18, 19, 20 etc) will have similar problems with a 245 or larger tyre fitted.

Read more here about my initial lowering problem.

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/inde...mp;#entry202521

And as for the comfort factor, theres absolutely no noticable difference in ride comfort between the 17' and the 20's in my opinion.

Mine will stay at standard height, it doesn't look too bad now that the springs have sagged a little bid.

Yeah Macca, i read some of your other topics and noticed that you had problems with 20" and lowering, and i was hoping you would reply to this topic so i could ask you some questions.

When you went to the suspension place, did they say they could stop the scrubbing, and did you have pedders or king springs. When you drove to perth and it wore a hole in the rear guard, did the guard scrubbing slow down as raised area on the guard wore a hole, or did it not make a difference.

Your right on the comfy, its all good till i hit a dip. As long as it doesnt cause damage to my vehicle i can probably put up with it. Sat im going to bunnings buy a plainer and some sandpaper then im going to pedders on to put it on the hoist and shave off the raise areas, and see if that fixes it. Fingerscrossed.

Thanks for the info, its good to know that im not the only one, and that your tyres havent been damaged throughout this process, it means their is maybe a light at the end of the tunnell, instead of maybey 4 torn tyres.

Cheers

Bondie

[argie]

I figured it was something to do with the offset. But as the rims are paid for (about 3k) then im gonna have to work around it. I think, re-shaping the guards will be the first step, if that doesnt work, maybey custom guards, if thats not accessible, ive got the old springs and will have to put them in, as it didnt scrub with the standard springs in.

Thanks for the info, and the attachments. I tell you what, i learnt so much about this vehilce since i joined this forum, its amazing, the vast types of knowledge out there about this vehicle.

Thanks for the info.

Bondie.

May i suggest thinking along the lines of inner spacer might be your cheapest solution. (Spacer disk between hub and rim.) be AWARE that some insurance companies consider them illegal i think.

good luck, keep us in the loop.

cheers

Argie

Edited May 8, 2008 by argie

[mkay]

With 20" wheels the increase in overall wheel diameter is less then 12mm (6mm each side) over standard, not enough to cause a problem.

The scrubbing of the inner gaurds is because the rims are wider, so the outer edge of the tyre scrubs the inner guard. I have 20"x8.5" rims with 245/35 tyres fitted, had it lowered and had the same problem so stuck the original spings back in. I recently drove from Darwin to Perth with the ORIGINAL springs fitted, cargo of one passenger and around 120kg of luggage in the boot and on the rear seat. The road was not all that rough but the odd dip in the road still caused it to scrub and it DID wear a hole through both rear inner gaurds. I have some rub marks on the front inners too (The tyres where fine). I think any size rim (18, 19, 20 etc) will have similar problems with a 245 or larger tyre fitted.

Read more here about my initial lowering problem.

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/inde...mp;#entry202521

And as for the comfort factor, theres absolutely no noticable difference in ride comfort between the 17' and the 20's in my opinion.

Mine will stay at standard height, it doesn't look too bad now that the springs have sagged a little bid.

Yeah Macca, i read some of your other topics and noticed that you had problems with 20" and lowering, and i was hoping you would reply to this topic so i could ask you some questions.

When you went to the suspension place, did they say they could stop the scrubbing, and did you have pedders or king springs. When you drove to perth and it wore a hole in the rear guard, did the guard scrubbing slow down as raised area on the guard wore a hole, or did it not make a difference.

Your right on the comfy, its all good till i hit a dip. As long as it doesnt cause damage to my vehicle i can probably put up with it. Sat im going to bunnings buy a plainer and some sandpaper then im going to pedders on to put it on the hoist and shave off the raise areas, and see if that fixes it. Fingerscrossed.

Thanks for the info, its good to know that im not the only one, and that your tyres havent been damaged throughout this process, it means their is maybe a light at the end of the tunnell, instead of maybey 4 torn tyres.

Cheers

Bondie

Here's a pic I just took of the rear inner guard. It's the same on both sides.

There are actually two holes, the big one at the bottom and one smaller one just above. Under the smaller one is where the plastic bumper attaches to the body of the car. It has actually started to wear the plastic away from the attachment point. This damaged all happened with the car at the standard height on the trip to Perth as previously stated. No more damage has occurred since the trip as I rarely load much weight into the vehicle, I was also traveling around 130-140 km/h so the dips in the road were amplified.

I had King sprigs fitted originally but had them removed within an hour once the problem was noticed. The guys at the suspension place had no idea on a remedy. After the drive to Perth I decided I would just have to live with the car at the standard height, it still turns plenty of heads.

You would have to remove too much material from the inner guard and bumper attachment, possibly compromising its strength.

I believe the only solution is to use a narrower rim and tyre or leave it standard height.

Good luck.

Just noticed you have an ATX, mine is a sportivo. I believe the sportivo springs are slightly lower than standard, this could also be an option for you. Might be worth checking out.

Edited May 8, 2008 by mkay

[AcoustiK]

Im pretty sure the sportivo springs are teh same as the atx, because it got a body kit it will look like its lowered a bit, but thats all an illusion.

Other alternatives... Perhaps try compressing the springs or cutting it to the height u want? Other alternative you could try is to modify the camber so the wheels tuck in more...

[dannywss]

Im pretty sure the sportivo springs are teh same as the atx, because it got a body kit it will look like its lowered a bit, but thats all an illusion.

Other alternatives... Perhaps try compressing the springs or cutting it to the height u want? Other alternative you could try is to modify the camber so the wheels tuck in more...

Your first part is correct.

But... erm.. compress and cutting spring, both highly illegal. And i did tried once on my camry(when super low spring is too low and low spring not low enough, so i cut it, clost to 2 inches) The ride is as bumpy as hell, my sister was sitting at the back, i can see her jumping around at the back seat from my mirror... lolz

so.. i just dont suggest this method, not that i wanna make a war.. Thanks for understanding..

[dannywss]

I had King sprigs fitted originally but had them removed within an hour once the problem was noticed. The guys at the suspension place had no idea on a remedy. After the drive to Perth I decided I would just have to live with the car at the standard height, it still turns plenty of heads.

Do you mind telling us which profile did you go for? Super low or just Low? Coz i am thinking to my mine from Kings Spring. Thanks!

[DavoP]

Changing camber adjustment, correct me if I'm wrong, brings the top of the wheels either in or away from the strut, castor being towards the from or rear of the car, so if you change the camber you'll not only effect the performance of the vehicle but also wear tyres out prematurely.