i aint got no snorkel, so am i gona lay down 5 hundie

[whitestivo]

gav, you can reflect on your perfect cold air idle whilst watching the rear of my car disappear from your view

cha54, my experience with an old 200sx was without shielding my under bonnet blitz sus took in soo much hot air that after 1 hour driving was absolutely awful. once shielded properly, improvemnt was dramatic. can you explain some more please? i don't care for dyno's real world conditions.

why is it the top mount intercoolers don't perform as well as front mounts if all the temps are the same. how does this then not apply to cai?

hoping for a healthy dose of info, not seeking an argument.

whitestivo

[chicaboo]

gav, you can reflect on your perfect cold air idle whilst watching the rear of my car disappear from your view

It wasn't just an idle issue, the car would not rev over 1000-1500rpm for several seconds when trying to drive it.

It would do it again at about 2500rpm in 2nd and 3rd gear too. It got to the point that it was dangerous.

Don't worry, you will become o fey with the back of my TX3 soon enough. ;)

Gav.

[CHA54]

I've got datalogs from vipec, adaptronic and pfc datalogit, also have logs from manual K type termocouple probes on stock ECU cars in conjunction with Autotap OBDII laptop based scan tool.

Underbonnet temps rise up to around 45-50 deg in stop-start peak hour traffic, but once your above 20km/h the temp is down within a couple of degree's of ambient temp. This was completed with two different intakes in particular on the zze, one with the pod where the battery usually sits behind the headlight (Battery relocated), and another with the pod down next to the radiator in front of the gearbox. The intake temp sensor was placed in the pipe 20cm from the throttle body in most tests, and more recently a different bosch IAT sensor mounted into the plenum after I welded a bung to the intake.

The tests with the pod near the front of the gearbox also had a LOT higher underbonnet temps than your normal ZZE in traffic due to the turbo setup radiating a lot more heat even when ACL heatshielding and Competition Coatings Extreme ceramic coating are used.

All of my testing has been done on road in the real world, I have logs from the dyno too but they're not relevant. Lots of peak hour logs driving from Wishart to St Lucia, normal street driving logs around the southside and also many sets of logs from the M1 in non-peak conditions.

FWIW a good top mount cooler works just as well as a FMIC on a moving vehicle too, plenty of examples of that on rexnet with datalogs from process west topmounts etc.

[Evo7]

i pulled my Snorkel out a while ago, and it is probably one of the simplest mods to do to get that little bit of satisfaction out of your car ;)

I cant prove that its more 'Torquey' or improved power or whatever... but all i know is, it makes a nice little noise :P

Evo

[Pippy]

Gav, would the CAI you were using happen to be made by, dare i mention the taboo 3 letters on this forum?

The problem i noticed with most of the CAI include the following:

- Inaccurate mounting of the MAF sensor

Commonly caused by poorly machined MAF mounts, where the MAF becomes poorly positioned (too shallow, angle offset, placing MAF at a bend, etc etc) causing the air to not pass through the MAF sufficient to provide an accurate reading. Toyota and many other car makes overcome this with a mesh or fitting with fins to straighten the air.

- Too large diameter piping

Although stepping up the plumbing in theory increases the volume of air, however it also decreases the velocity of air at low vacuum, hence not providing enough reading at low throttle position. This can be overcome by stepping down the pipe size to provide reading, the slight decrease in the MAF section will not rob power or flow, as high school physics would suggest that the total flow rate is governed by the majority or output volume capacity.

Personally, I think removing the pipes off your airbox would be a good start, definitely not as good as a CAI (that is correctly made). The TRD intake for me personally is a bit over priced, they could have at least stuck the TRD sticker on straight on the MAF mount?

As for the other popular CAI made by you know who, while being nice and stainless mandrel, would be nice if it had a bit more accuracy it’s ‘machined’ MAF mount.

Anyway, enough about CAI...

[Pippy]

cha54, my experience with an old 200sx was without shielding my under bonnet blitz sus took in soo much hot air that after 1 hour driving was absolutely awful. once shielded properly, improvemnt was dramatic. can you explain some more please? i don't care for dyno's real world conditions.

why is it the top mount intercoolers don't perform as well as front mounts if all the temps are the same. how does this then not apply to cai?

I feel like i'm missing something here.

Shielding is good if the heat source is close. i.e. the motor or the turbo, but i don't see the relevance of this to a Corolla, as the mounting position of the motor would suggest lesser retention of heat under the bonnet in comparison to a 200SX.

The intercooler rule does apply to CAI, BUT is VERY limited. Even once the intake pipes heat up, the heat exchange rate from the surface area of the pipes alone to the flowing air becomes irrelevant compared to the surface area offered by intercoolers (hence its name).

Hope this helps answer your question. :)

[chicaboo]

Gav, would the CAI you were using happen to be made by, dare i mention the taboo 3 letters on this forum?

The problem i noticed with most of the CAI include the following:

- Inaccurate mounting of the MAF sensor

Commonly caused by poorly machined MAF mounts, where the MAF becomes poorly positioned (too shallow, angle offset, placing MAF at a bend, etc etc) causing the air to not pass through the MAF sufficient to provide an accurate reading. Toyota and many other car makes overcome this with a mesh or fitting with fins to straighten the air.

- Too large diameter piping

Although stepping up the plumbing in theory increases the volume of air, however it also decreases the velocity of air at low vacuum, hence not providing enough reading at low throttle position. This can be overcome by stepping down the pipe size to provide reading, the slight decrease in the MAF section will not rob power or flow, as high school physics would suggest that the total flow rate is governed by the majority or output volume capacity.

Personally, I think removing the pipes off your airbox would be a good start, definitely not as good as a CAI (that is correctly made). The TRD intake for me personally is a bit over priced, they could have at least stuck the TRD sticker on straight on the MAF mount?

As for the other popular CAI made by you know who, while being nice and stainless mandrel, would be nice if it had a bit more accuracy it’s ‘machined’ MAF mount.

Anyway, enough about CAI...

Hi Pippy,

I mentioned that I have owned, used and sold 2 different types of CAIs. The first one I had was a certain HPC coated mild steel unit that is very popular, the other was candy apple red in colour. As similar as the design and function was on each of the 2 different CAIs, they each had their own pros and cons, and different characteristics about them. The former was twice as loud as the latter, and attracted a fair bit more heat to itself by virtue of its hefty mass. It did however give a broader spread of power I thought. The other more colourful and cheerful CAI was noticeably sluggish lower in the rev range, but would scream to life with lift and like breaking traction on occasion. I couldn't clearly say one was decisively better than the other though, but the build quality was better on the coated unit for the most part. One of them, being bigger took the bloody paint off my engine bay in a couple of spots though, which I wasn't happy about. Whereas the other being a smidgeon smaller cleared the body and never rattled against it. Both of them made my existing cold start hesitation staggeringly worse anyhow...

I don't know of a popular stainless CAI sorry. The only MAF mounting issue I had on one of the CAIs was the threads being "gritty", and taking a while to wind in or out due to a low pitch thread being used (I had to be careful not to over tighten them too).

Cheers, Gav.

[the_random_hero]

gav, you can reflect on your perfect cold air idle whilst watching the rear of my car disappear from your view

cha54, my experience with an old 200sx was without shielding my under bonnet blitz sus took in soo much hot air that after 1 hour driving was absolutely awful. once shielded properly, improvemnt was dramatic. can you explain some more please? i don't care for dyno's real world conditions.

why is it the top mount intercoolers don't perform as well as front mounts if all the temps are the same. how does this then not apply to cai?

hoping for a healthy dose of info, not seeking an argument.

whitestivo

I can tell you right now a decent top mount setup is a slightly better setup than a large front mount due to less intake piping, although if you size things correctly it shouldn't be too much of an advantage. It works well provided air flow to and from the engine bay is correct (ie. not removing undertrays, etc) and as long as the car is moving, when it stops you get the dreaded heat soak. Look at a lot of turbo diesel cars - don't see huge front mounts there do you yet some run huge boost figures.

Taking timing adjustments out of the equation, a 10 degree difference in air temps will give you a total of, wait for it, approximately 1hp difference at the flywheel. You mainly benefit from the extra air flow, not from the temperature of the air (unless it's drastic).

[DJKOR]

Taking timing adjustments out of the equation, a 10 degree difference in air temps will give you a total of, wait for it, approximately 1hp difference at the flywheel. You mainly benefit from the extra air flow, not from the temperature of the air (unless it's drastic).

Not trying to create an argument, but cars run better at the drags when it's cold right, and that's usually with up to a 10 degree temperature difference. I haven't watched that much drag racing, but I'm sure I've seen it many time that the cold air makes a difference.

[the_random_hero]

Taking timing adjustments out of the equation, a 10 degree difference in air temps will give you a total of, wait for it, approximately 1hp difference at the flywheel. You mainly benefit from the extra air flow, not from the temperature of the air (unless it's drastic).

Not trying to create an argument, but cars run better at the drags when it's cold right, and that's usually with up to a 10 degree temperature difference. I haven't watched that much drag racing, but I'm sure I've seen it many time that the cold air makes a difference.

But then it depends on a lot more factors. If it's FI, colder ambient temps means intercoolers are more efficient, when you bring timing into the matter you start to see differences.

[Greenlevin]

A couple of years ago I witnessed Gen 3 Commodore do two dyno runs.

1. The first run was with a (two lettered) induction system fitted, and

2. The second was with the induction system removed (and no stock snorkel fitted) which gave a 10 rwkw increase.

The guy operating the dyno said he show people with these induction systems that they restrict the amount of air into the engine.

I removed the snorkel from my 2002 Corolla Levin, yesterday, and if feels less restricted and gives a nice note at wide open throttle. Once the snorkel is removed you an see how restricted it is.

Give it a go! it cost nothing and the snorkel can be refitted if you want.

[DJKOR]

also i dont believe just removing snorkel would give 70% of what a CAI will....would need some dyno proof etc...one stock...same car with snorkel removed and same car with CAI on .....same dyno needed..and preferably same day etc.

Say what:

de-snorkled airbox + ported headers + varex muffler on stock pipe = 110 KW

trd cai + ported headers + varex muffler on stock pipe = 110.4 KW

ces cai + ported headers + ces catback = 114 KW

And I've been saying that for ages... Guankah, go post that info in the thread where they were hanging $#!T on me please. :P

Note that the CES CAI dyno also has a CES catback. Otherwise I would expect it to be just slightly higher than the other 2 with the same exhaust.

Gav.

[chicaboo]

[Guni]

also i dont believe just removing snorkel would give 70% of what a CAI will....would need some dyno proof etc...one stock...same car with snorkel removed and same car with CAI on .....same dyno needed..and preferably same day etc.

Say what:

He was there Darryl.....

[Guni]

<_<

[DJKOR]

He was there Darryl.....

I know. I was just quoting him because:

a) he said he had his doubts, and

b) in that post he set up the exact scenario that was tested.

[Guni]

I know. I was just quoting him because:

a) he said he had his doubts, and

b) in that post he set up the exact scenario that was tested.

for the benefit of us all .......... :)