random grinding noise when starting the engine

[xCalibur_]

okay so just recently i've had this really worrying grinding noise as soon as my engine starts. and before people tell me to search the forum, i already have, and its not the same as the VVTi noise that has been covered before.

the noise happens at completely random start ups. my guess is that its the starter motor but not too sure. i can say however before this problem happened, i can assume two things could have triggered it.

1. my engine failed to start once on a cold start after work. it was a freezing night and the car was pretty frosty. took three tries to get it started

2. about a week after that, i had accidentally turned the key to ignition while the engine was running, cos i couldn't hear the engine running at the time.

so hopefully you mechanical people can help me :)

[TRD468]

This is what i have been told. Over night oil drains down into the sump leaving the top parts of the engine dry. On first start up these parts aren't fully lubricated and make a grinding noise (as it is metal against metal) until oil pressure is built up and all parts are lubricated. The noise usually lasts for about 1 or 2 seconds once the engine has cranked over and started.

makes sense to me :D

[xCalibur_]

do you reckon its anything to worry about ? its only just started happening, and i've had the car since i was on my L's which was about 4 years ago. any ways to stop it

[CROCO]

Hi nathan, mate have a read over on the kluger forum, a couple of forum members are having similar problem, one forum member peter said lift your engine revs to 2000rpm for 1 second and then switch of the engine, what this does is gives your engine more oil pressure when stopped and forces more oil into the vvti gears and top end of the engine, preventing no lubricating on start ups, he swears by it. sorry mate I probadly ballsed it up to what he actually said, only way have a read on the kluger section.

[xCalibur_]

ahh okay, i'll give that a go and see what happens

[the drake]

Hi Guys,

My Aurion has been making these noises on/off hasn't been making these noises lately - Should i be worried in the long term? Would i actually feel an obvious deterioration in performance when there is a total VVTi failure?

[xCalibur_]

so i've been doing the method that the hilux guys have been doing for about a month now, and still no luck. the noise is still there.

my assumption is that i have caused some damage to the starter motor. but i'm no mechanic so i could be completely wrong.

if i manage to have my camera ready before i start my car, i could try to record the noise, and hopefully people could have a better idea of what my problem is

[zedder]

Why wait for months on info from some random on a forum who heard from a mate that knew a bloke that he read somewhere that... blah blah blah. Just take it to a mechanic and get it looked at.

[TRD69]

i have a griding noise at startup, although mine isnt during any cold start up. my engine start noise usually takes place when the car has already warmed up and sits for an hour or so and i turn it on.

Edited September 7, 2012 by TRD69

[leonG-]

Today I had the same problem for the first time. It's like a rat or somethings that got spinned and screwed up inside the engine or whatever it is. Sounds like GRR!!!!! Like a meat mincer that mince up some bones. Chats that kind of noise?

[leonG-]

Today I had the same problem for the first time. It's like a rat or somethings that got spinned and screwed up inside the engine or whatever it is. Sounds like GRR!!!!! Like a meat mincer that mince up some bones. Chats that kind of noise?

[the drake]

Hi LeonG -

I've got the same issue as well - most recently, it even had a service as well. It occurred even more often now, as this time round I took it to another place for a 90k km service and i believe they used a different type of oil (makes a difference..?)

Anyways, there's talk about it in the kluger forums - i've tried the technique Rice Racing posted up and it actually works

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php/topic/37549-grinding-noise-on-start-up/page__st__15

[Noodle Boy]

Hi LeonG -

I've got the same issue as well - most recently, it even had a service as well. It occurred even more often now, as this time round I took it to another place for a 90k km service and i believe they used a different type of oil (makes a difference..?)

Anyways, there's talk about it in the kluger forums - i've tried the technique Rice Racing posted up and it actually works

http://au.toyotaowne...up/page__st__15

recently occured to mine. it occured about 3000k after its service. where i switched from a dealer that used 15w40 oil to 10w30. i'm gessing that oil does pay a factor in this problem, since the problem never arose prior to the recent service. luckily it has only occured once since, and it has been 2 weeks or so.

[jaysonn341]

Never thought I would have to post here.. but today I just experienced a very similar problem :/

It happened in the morning on a cold start. The noise goes on for not even one second. It sounds like if you put a marble in a tin can and shake it vigorously for a split second.

Hope somebody finds a reason for this!

[Kenshin X]

my corolla does it too. its the lack of oil on the top of the engine when the car is cold started. Using a lower vicosity oil will help with the grinding noise as the thinner oil will be pumped quicker around the engine than a higher vicosity oil (eg. 5W40 vs. 15W40) I use penrite Sin5 which is a 5W60 oil but still have the metal rattling noise for like a split second before it runs ok.

The mrs pulsar on the other hand used to have a 15W40 castrol oil and i could hear the engine rattling for more than 1 second lol. so changed it to HPR5 which made the engine alot happier on col start ups.

this is why the time when the engine wears down the most is on cold start ups. dont be fooled that starting up ur engine everyday will help it pump more oil around the engine and prolong it. unless ur going away for 6 months, cold starting it up once in a few months is less wear than cold starting it 40 times in the same time frame. kapish?

[Noodle Boy]

my corolla does it too. its the lack of oil on the top of the engine when the car is cold started. Using a lower vicosity oil will help with the grinding noise as the thinner oil will be pumped quicker around the engine than a higher vicosity oil (eg. 5W40 vs. 15W40) I use penrite Sin5 which is a 5W60 oil but still have the metal rattling noise for like a split second before it runs ok.

The mrs pulsar on the other hand used to have a 15W40 castrol oil and i could hear the engine rattling for more than 1 second lol. so changed it to HPR5 which made the engine alot happier on col start ups.

this is why the time when the engine wears down the most is on cold start ups. dont be fooled that starting up ur engine everyday will help it pump more oil around the engine and prolong it. unless ur going away for 6 months, cold starting it up once in a few months is less wear than cold starting it 40 times in the same time frame. kapish?

the dealer i went to last time used 15w40 for some reason, whilst this dealer i went to recently poured in 10w30. as i've stated above, the grinding sound and vibration didn't occur whilst the engine was on 15w40 oil. your theory is valid, and i am unanimous with it by all means, however for some reason the situation doesn't seem right.

[TRD69]

Hi LeonG -

I've got the same issue as well - most recently, it even had a service as well. It occurred even more often now, as this time round I took it to another place for a 90k km service and i believe they used a different type of oil (makes a difference..?)

Anyways, there's talk about it in the kluger forums - i've tried the technique Rice Racing posted up and it actually works

http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php/topic/37549-grinding-noise-on-start-up/page__st__15

Ive tried holding the revs at 2k for a second or two just before I turn the car off, unfortunately the sound still there. Ahhh

[DJKOR]

Hi LeonG -

I've got the same issue as well - most recently, it even had a service as well. It occurred even more often now, as this time round I took it to another place for a 90k km service and i believe they used a different type of oil (makes a difference..?)

Anyways, there's talk about it in the kluger forums - i've tried the technique Rice Racing posted up and it actually works

http://au.toyotaowne...up/page__st__15

Ive tried holding the revs at 2k for a second or two just before I turn the car off, unfortunately the sound still there. Ahhh

Same as well. I just find an oil and filter change makes the issue go away. It always happens pretty much at the same time for me (~11,000km) so I just see it as a sign that the oil and filter need to be changed if I haven't done so already. I don't see the point in trying to just prevent the issue with that procedure above when the oil is at the point where it should be changed anyways.

[TRD69]

Hi LeonG -

i got the same issue as well - most recently, it even had a service as well. It occurred even more often now, as this time round I took it to another place for a 90k km service and i believe they used a different type of oil (makes a difference..?)

Anyways, there's talk about it in the kluger forums - i've tried the technique Rice Racing posted up and it actually works

http://au.toyotaowne...up/page__st__15

Ive tried holding the revs at 2k for a second or two just before I turn the car off, unfortunately the sound still there. Ahhh

Same as well. I just find an oil and filter change makes the issue go away. It always happens pretty much at the same time for me (~11,000km) so I just see it as a sign that the oil and filter need to be changed if I haven't done so already. I don't see the point in trying to just prevent the issue with that procedure above when the oil is at the point where it should be changed anyways.

Your lucky your one happens around 11k after an oil change. I've done 3k since my last oil change.

[Kenshin X]

my corolla does it too. its the lack of oil on the top of the engine when the car is cold started. Using a lower vicosity oil will help with the grinding noise as the thinner oil will be pumped quicker around the engine than a higher vicosity oil (eg. 5W40 vs. 15W40) I use penrite Sin5 which is a 5W60 oil but still have the metal rattling noise for like a split second before it runs ok.

The mrs pulsar on the other hand used to have a 15W40 castrol oil and i could hear the engine rattling for more than 1 second lol. so changed it to HPR5 which made the engine alot happier on col start ups.

this is why the time when the engine wears down the most is on cold start ups. dont be fooled that starting up ur engine everyday will help it pump more oil around the engine and prolong it. unless ur going away for 6 months, cold starting it up once in a few months is less wear than cold starting it 40 times in the same time frame. kapish?

the dealer i went to last time used 15w40 for some reason, whilst this dealer i went to recently poured in 10w30. as i've stated above, the grinding sound and vibration didn't occur whilst the engine was on 15w40 oil. your theory is valid, and i am unanimous with it by all means, however for some reason the situation doesn't seem right.

did u actually see the oil and the label? maybe u should give them your own oil next time u service your car there. becareful of the thieves though.

[Silver-Aurion]

Wish I knew if I had this problem. Everytime I start my engine I try to listen for it but can't notice anything out of the ordinary. :/.

[MyATX]

^ I wouldnt worry about it Silver Aurion, if you had this issue you would definitely know about it.

I have this randomly in my car and it is a loud and very unusual noise on start-up. Sounds very much like a mechanical Grrrr noise as others have stated, coming from the top end of the motor.

I did tell Toyota about it at one of my services ( 75000klm from memory ) and as with all random noises it didnt occur for them and I was told all is fine.

Although surely someone in Toyota service knows what it is !

I now have 100,000klm's so im hoping due to its infrequent nature that it is nothing to worry about.

It would be great to have an answer to what engine component the noise is coming from though.

[DJKOR]

It would be great to have an answer to what engine component the noise is coming from though.

Most of these cases are the VVTi controller as already discussed. This is why that "solution" of revving to 2k RPM before you shut down the engine helps in some cases:

Rattle on engine start

I guess we were right. Dave and I had this one on our minds from when we first thought about it. Since you are the second person to report that it is being changed under warranty, maybe there is some more hope for others that are getting the issue.

I dont think it is piston slap, more like a timing chain rattle or maybe something in the vvti mechanism.

That's what I'm thinking. It seems to be coming from the upper part of the block. It's similar to the sound of that intake control valve closing, but more metallic. It just has me stumped.

Maybe it really is the VVT-i mechanism. When you see a video animation of it working, you can kind of picture how it can generate a knock/rattle sound if it doesn't have appropriate oil pressure in it.

The mechanism is like this for those that don't know:

Having a quick look at the service manual, maybe it ties in with the so called 'lock pin':

When the engine stops, the intake side VVT-i controller is locked on the most retarded angle side by the lock pin, and the exhaust side controller is locked on the most advanced angle side. This ensures excellent engine startability.

The oil pressure sent from the advance or retard side path at the intake and exhaust camshaft causes rotation in the VVT-i controller vane circumferential direction to vary the intake valve timing continuously.

An advanced angle assist spring is provided on the exhaust side VVT-i controller. This helps to apply torque in the advanced angle direction so that the vane lock pin securely engages with the housing when the engine stops.

When hydraulic pressure is not applied to the VVT-i controller immediately after the engine has been started, the lock pin locks the movement of the VVT-i controller to prevent a knocking noise.

[MyATX]

Thanks for the answer DJKOR. I had read about the vvti stuff on here before but didn't put two and two together. Just put it down to another strange sound from this engine lol

It is slightly concerning as at times i have actually heard a noise like piston slap under medium to hard acceleration and would have to assume the cause is the same.

That noise happens far less often than the Grrr noise at start-up, although it did occur once straight after a service.

Hopefully total failure is fairly rare, especially after reading of the cost to fix if out of warranty.

[xCalibur_]

so i done that revving method for about 2 weeks, then stopped, and i dont want to jinx it, but since i stopped, it has not happened again. so for people concerned about if this method actually works. i can say as of now, it does :)