Hole between 1st and 2nd in Sportivo

[shaohaok]

hahah nah dave, i meant no flaming because i said its technically impossible to land lift 1-2. everyone gets too excited and defensive when i say that :P

he's right tho

[joefish1298]

better then all the options above is to learn to shift.... seriously!!! it shouldnt take 3 and a half hours to shift 1st -2nd. stretch 1st harder and if you still cant land lift dont be afraid to get close to the limiter and if you still cant land lift theres something wrong with you.... like punk rolla said earlier he has 18's on and he can land lift.. sure the diameters will be similar but what about the weight im sure a set of 18's are heavier then the stock 16's.

Well, I hate to disagree being a n00b and all, but if you wind out 1st to the limiter, clutch in, change to 2nd in 0 seconds (theoretically), clutch out (without slipping the clutch to keep the revs up), YOU WILL NOT STAY IN LIFT, the ratios do not allow it. It's a mathematical certainty.

[Northy]

better then all the options above is to learn to shift.... seriously!!! it shouldnt take 3 and a half hours to shift 1st -2nd. stretch 1st harder and if you still cant land lift dont be afraid to get close to the limiter and if you still cant land lift theres something wrong with you.... like punk rolla said earlier he has 18's on and he can land lift.. sure the diameters will be similar but what about the weight im sure a set of 18's are heavier then the stock 16's.

Well, I hate to disagree being a n00b and all, but if you wind out 1st to the limiter, clutch in, change to 2nd in 0 seconds (theoretically), clutch out (without slipping the clutch to keep the revs up), YOU WILL NOT STAY IN LIFT, the ratios do not allow it. It's a mathematical certainty.

how long have you had your sportivo? there are alot of guys on here who have owned them since day one and many have no probs landing a 1>2 shift and landing in lift, its not the car its the driver....

[JAZE55]

I find it hard that many find it difficult to maintain lift on the 1-2 change. There is not much you can do wrong, besides hit the shifter gate and grind . I must admit our stock shifter feels horendous, but it is adequate. You wont get the silky smooth shift like in a honda S2000.

If guys with 18s are able to do this, you should not have any problems.

Practice makes perfect, but watch out as its double Demerits this weekend.

[MT]

here here about double D's...

but to be honest, joefish is right. Mathematically, it is impossible to shift from 1st to 2nd and land in lift. simple problem with the gear ratio's, there is no argument to that.

However, it is possible to land in lift if you shift a certain way, but you need to be used to the car and you need a sportivo with a good clutch, or one that has had the adjustment.

So, mathematically impossible, physically very possible.

And going on all the other arguements, its got nothing to do with the weight of the wheels but the size is what makes the difference. If i can drive my old man's sportivo which has a couple of hundred kilo's of tools in the boot and still land 1-2 lift, but then hop into my car (with exhaust/CAI etc) and not be able to, clearly its got nothing to do with weight. (my clutch is f*cked though, which does cause me to not land in lift)

[sportiyo]

hes right stock as rock(this including the clutch adjustment not done), u cant land on lift, i just tried tonight, i still have the clutch issue and i managed to land at 5800rpm, and this was including the 0.xx secs wasted coz the bloody thing wont let me shift to second, but if the adjustment is done i dont know how u cannot land on lift

[JiggaMan]

As north said its not the car is your driver all you REALLY need a fast left hand. I had problems landing lift in 1-2 changes maybe for like the first week i had the car after that.

Perfect gear changes, Note my Runx is completely stock, and is on 17" wheels and i have no problem.

[JF-GEE4CE]

your an idiot when you say its got nothing to do with the wieght... it does matter about the size and weight!! are you telling me that your car will go the same when your on your own driving and then you'e got 4 other people in the car??? no!! ofcourse its gonna lag more with more weight everybody knows that...if the sportivo was not able to land lift 1st-2nd TOYOTA would definately not have brought it out in production... when your wheels are heavier its not good... You want all the spinning or rotating parts of the car and the motor to be as light as possible.. flywheel, pistons, pulleys and many more

[shaohaok]

if the sportivo was not able to land lift 1st-2nd TOYOTA would definately not have brought it out in production...

where did u get that from? toyota are not the first ppl who've built such hi-revving NAs that fall out of their powerband on their first couple of upshifts

when your wheels are heavier its not good... You want all the spinning or rotating parts of the car and the motor to be as light as possible.. flywheel, pistons, pulleys and many more

on a race car, yes... not on a road car.

[Hiro]

your an idiot when you say its got nothing to do with the wieght... it does matter about the size and weight!! are you telling me that your car will go the same when your on your own driving and then you'e got 4 other people in the car??? no!! ofcourse its gonna lag more with more weight everybody knows that...if the sportivo was not able to land lift 1st-2nd TOYOTA would definately not have brought it out in production... when your wheels are heavier its not good... You want all the spinning or rotating parts of the car and the motor to be as light as possible.. flywheel, pistons, pulleys and many more

Weight affects acceleration, nothing to do with speed of gear changes etc. The car could weigh 100kg and (assuming the gearing was still the same), the car will still take the same time to shift gears, and you'd still land at the same rpm as if the car weighed 5 tonnes. This whole thread is about the spacing of the gears meaning that you don't stay in lift when changing from first to second, not how fast the car is.

[JF-GEE4CE]

with more weight the car is gonna lag more.... heavier wheels equals more lag

how come people with stock as a rock sportivos can land lift and others cant land lift even if they have mods....

the only variable that is being changed is the driver!!!

your car is only as good as the driver

Edited September 30, 2007 by jf187

[Suprathai]

*cough*

Once you put the clutch in, the rpms drop according to the mass of the components connected to the flywheel............I really don't see how 'external'weight would affect the gear change in this instance.......it will affect acceleration obviously without a doubt

[xoom]

for those who are purely only interested in the theory then this will help

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZSNHFPF0

now for those interested in reality of the situation it is possible to land lift on the 1->2 change

Why ? because its not just limited to the gearing ...... the gear numbers as seen in the excel spreadsheet i uploaded assume that ur running each gear to redline (oh and i did the sheet to 14000 rpms so u can see what happens if u miss shift ;)) ...... in real life when u accelerate even though u do pause off the gas to shift gears dont forget the car is still in the forward propelling motion ..... that coupled with the quickness of u being able to shift and if necessary using the clutch to take some of the beating u are able to achieve a 1->2 in lift shift change ...... if u dont believe me then simply dont ..... ill just continue to do it day in day out no probs ..... then again i got lift from 5700 to 8400 which means u can drive miss daisy and still make it but even before this rpm change when it was 6200 to 8200 it was still possible.

[JF-GEE4CE]

there you go peoples^^^^^^

[shaohaok]

for those who are purely only interested in the theory then this will help

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZSNHFPF0

now for those interested in reality of the situation it is possible to land lift on the 1->2 change

Why ? because its not just limited to the gearing ...... the gear numbers as seen in the excel spreadsheet i uploaded assume that ur running each gear to redline (oh and i did the sheet to 14000 rpms so u can see what happens if u miss shift ;)) ...... in real life when u accelerate even though u do pause off the gas to shift gears dont forget the car is still in the forward propelling motion ..... that coupled with the quickness of u being able to shift and if necessary using the clutch to take some of the beating u are able to achieve a 1->2 in lift shift change ...... if u dont believe me then simply dont ..... ill just continue to do it day in day out no probs ..... then again i got lift from 5700 to 8400 which means u can drive miss daisy and still make it but even before this rpm change when it was 6200 to 8200 it was still possible.

i don't think the argument is about whether it's possible in reality. we know it's possible to stay in lift after the 1-2 upchange. i think the point is that you shouldn't have to slip the clutch or perform any super fast super fancy slick shift to stay in the powerband, just like in the typeR. and also if u have to slip the clutch on the upshift then u're not transferring all the power to the ground, blah blah blah, but still, we know that staying in lift gives u that much more speed after the upchange.

so yeah the point in contention is if toyota makes the hi-cam zone so narrow, why isn't the gearing matched any better so that all u only need to do is a decent brisk upshift to stay in the powerband. and if toyota matched better gearing, wouldn't it make the stivo nicer to drive? :)

... or maybe a wider hi-cam zone :P

btw, where's that boost gauge video!!

Edited September 30, 2007 by shaohaok

[Hiro]

*cough*

Once you put the clutch in, the rpms drop according to the mass of the components connected to the flywheel............I really don't see how 'external'weight would affect the gear change in this instance.......it will affect acceleration obviously without a doubt

Actually, it drops according to the INERTIA of the rotating components from the flywheel through to the engine. A heavy flywheel will retain its speed longer than a light one will, which is the whole point of a flywheel in the first place. Race cars use very light flywheels to improve acceleration (inertia is the enemy of acceleration, but the friend of retaining speed up hills) and because they don't have to travel at constant speeds or up hills much.

Anyway, as soon as the clutch is released the engine will spin up to whatever speed the drivetrain is doing, which is directly related to the road speed through the gearing ratios. Now big heavy high inertia chrome wheels will keep spinning longer than small superlight racing wheels, so you'd actually expect a car with high inertia drivetrain to lose less rpm and speed in a gearchange. I guess thats how trucks can go through 15 billion gearchanges just crossing an interchange without stalling the engine or coming to a halt - lots of inertia (huge torque and extremely short gear ratios help too)

[Suprathai]

Thats kinda what I was referring to....kinda lost all my physics knowledge after uni lol....

[shaohaok]

I guess thats how trucks can go through 15 billion gearchanges just crossing an interchange without stalling the engine or coming to a halt - lots of inertia (huge torque and extremely short gear ratios help too)

that's funny :P u should see them if they try and sorta drag each other at an uphill intersection

[theDefiant1]

I think a point of reference needs to be set. Are we simply talking about keeping in lift during gear changes (engine --> gearbox), or keeping in lift while getting that power to the ground (engine --> gearbox/drivetrain --> wheels)?

I'm seeing two distinct theories at work here...

[Punk_200sx]

Just to let you guys know, you can hit lift between gear uphill just as easily.

[MT]

your an idiot when you say its got nothing to do with the wieght... it does matter about the size and weight!! are you telling me that your car will go the same when your on your own driving and then you'e got 4 other people in the car??? no!! ofcourse its gonna lag more with more weight everybody knows that...if the sportivo was not able to land lift 1st-2nd TOYOTA would definately not have brought it out in production... when your wheels are heavier its not good... You want all the spinning or rotating parts of the car and the motor to be as light as possible.. flywheel, pistons, pulleys and many more

wow... once again in your strange obsession with disagreeing with everything i say to try to make me look stupid, you've done the opposite by completely missing the point in this thread.

Congrats

[xoom]

i don't think the argument is about whether it's possible in reality. we know it's possible to stay in lift after the 1-2 upchange. i think the point is that you shouldn't have to slip the clutch or perform any super fast super fancy slick shift to stay in the powerband, just like in the typeR. and also if u have to slip the clutch on the upshift then u're not transferring all the power to the ground, blah blah blah, but still, we know that staying in lift gives u that much more speed after the upchange.

so yeah the point in contention is if toyota makes the hi-cam zone so narrow, why isn't the gearing matched any better so that all u only need to do is a decent brisk upshift to stay in the powerband. and if toyota matched better gearing, wouldn't it make the stivo nicer to drive? :)

... or maybe a wider hi-cam zone :P

btw, where's that boost gauge video!!

fair enough .... sounds like a valid arguement ..... well i havent driven the stivo with the normal powerband in a while so for the life of me i cant remember what my shifting was like before but i do know i was able to keep it in lift .... now with the current lift setup that i have there is no need to do anything fancy .....

and you will get ur video in due time :P :P :P ..... u should know me by now i dont do things half a.s.s.ed so u'll get urself a damn good video ;) ;) ;)

[yoshi]

...if the sportivo was not able to land lift 1st-2nd TOYOTA would definately not have brought it out in production...

In USA the 2ZZ-GE engine has Lift engage at 6500 rpm isn't it. Which even if 6200rpm is only possible if you slide the clutch a little bit, I would imagine 6500 would be impossible

[shaohaok]

i don't think the argument is about whether it's possible in reality. we know it's possible to stay in lift after the 1-2 upchange. i think the point is that you shouldn't have to slip the clutch or perform any super fast super fancy slick shift to stay in the powerband, just like in the typeR. and also if u have to slip the clutch on the upshift then u're not transferring all the power to the ground, blah blah blah, but still, we know that staying in lift gives u that much more speed after the upchange.

so yeah the point in contention is if toyota makes the hi-cam zone so narrow, why isn't the gearing matched any better so that all u only need to do is a decent brisk upshift to stay in the powerband. and if toyota matched better gearing, wouldn't it make the stivo nicer to drive? :)

... or maybe a wider hi-cam zone :P

btw, where's that boost gauge video!!

fair enough .... sounds like a valid arguement ..... well i havent driven the stivo with the normal powerband in a while so for the life of me i cant remember what my shifting was like before but i do know i was able to keep it in lift .... now with the current lift setup that i have there is no need to do anything fancy .....

and you will get ur video in due time :P :P :P ..... u should know me by now i dont do things half a.s.s.ed so u'll get urself a damn good video ;) ;) ;)

hurry up

nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag

[qkslvr]

for those who are purely only interested in the theory then this will help

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZSNHFPF0

now for those interested in reality of the situation it is possible to land lift on the 1->2 change

Why ? because its not just limited to the gearing ...... the gear numbers as seen in the excel spreadsheet i uploaded assume that ur running each gear to redline (oh and i did the sheet to 14000 rpms so u can see what happens if u miss shift ;)) ...... in real life when u accelerate even though u do pause off the gas to shift gears dont forget the car is still in the forward propelling motion ..... that coupled with the quickness of u being able to shift and if necessary using the clutch to take some of the beating u are able to achieve a 1->2 in lift shift change ...... if u dont believe me then simply dont ..... ill just continue to do it day in day out no probs ..... then again i got lift from 5700 to 8400 which means u can drive miss daisy and still make it but even before this rpm change when it was 6200 to 8200 it was still possible.

i don't think the argument is about whether it's possible in reality. we know it's possible to stay in lift after the 1-2 upchange. i think the point is that you shouldn't have to slip the clutch or perform any super fast super fancy slick shift to stay in the powerband, just like in the typeR. and also if u have to slip the clutch on the upshift then u're not transferring all the power to the ground, blah blah blah, but still, we know that staying in lift gives u that much more speed after the upchange.

so yeah the point in contention is if toyota makes the hi-cam zone so narrow, why isn't the gearing matched any better so that all u only need to do is a decent brisk upshift to stay in the powerband. and if toyota matched better gearing, wouldn't it make the stivo nicer to drive? :)

... or maybe a wider hi-cam zone :P

btw, where's that boost gauge video!!

Unless you're talking matching a CVT with the 2ZZ-GE the gearing will always be a compromise. Lets get this straight, we are not arguing about gear ratios but rather how close the ratios of consecutive gears are. that is what keeps you in the power band on upshifts once you get there. If you want the gearing any closer, you'll probably need an 8speed tranny. LOL

a 1.8ltr hi revving engine (tuned for top end) is always going to have a narrow power band no matter how many CAI's you put on it. You can't widen the power band by simply making lift kick in earlier, as the engagement point is a biproduct of how much air the pistons can suck into the engine - and being a 1.8, that's not much (hence the high revs needed). Forced induction (as with Bill) or bigger displacement (stroker kit) are the only solutions.

So with that said, i thik Toyota have done the best they can with the powerband and the gearing for street/highway drivability.