Wheel alignment specs

[Speedz]

ah well... guess just have to live with it...

[Zerko]

One thing you need to be aware of is that there is no exact wheel alignment specification that will work perfectly on ALL cars. Every car (including those of the same model) can have different wheel alignment specifications. This is because of the variances that may exist between all steering/driveline components.

I don't quite get that.

If a particular model wears the same tyres and rims, wouldn't/shouldn't the alignment of those rims/tyres be constant between the same? Camber-wise, at least. If they had to tweak for each car, then they would have to go for a drive, adjust, go for a drive, adjust?

[DJKOR]

I don't quite get that.

If a particular model wears the same tyres and rims, wouldn't/shouldn't the alignment of those rims/tyres be constant between the same? Camber-wise, at least. If they had to tweak for each car, then they would have to go for a drive, adjust, go for a drive, adjust?

The alignment isn't performed according to whether the car drives straight or not. It is adjusted at each wheel using computer calibration where an alignment unit is mounted on each wheel and adjustments are made until the wheel is sitting exactly as required. The differences in wheel alignment don't come only from wheels and tires.... it's from the actual steering and suspension components.

Nevermind the fine details behind it all. All I am saying is that you can't just get the figures from another alignment of a car that goes straight and expect it to work on another car.

[Zerko]

The alignment isn't performed according to whether the car drives straight or not. It is adjusted at each wheel using computer calibration where an alignment unit is mounted on each wheel and adjustments are made until the wheel is sitting exactly as required. The differences in wheel alignment don't come only from wheels and tires.... it's from the actual steering and suspension components.

Yep, understand that, but just as you say, the alignment specs are measurements of where a wheel is sitting. For camber, the wheel's face in relation to 100% vertical, and for caster, the wheel's steering axis in relation to 100% vertical. For a stationary car on an alignment machine, the only 3 axes you can adjust is X, Y and Z (camber, caster and toe). Any differences/play/damage in steering components would only make it harder to set these axes correctly (specs as specified by manufacturer) or cause the settings to not be stable. But in the end, adjustments are made to set the position of the wheel(s), which, should be the same for a particular model.

Nevermind the fine details behind it all. All I am saying is that you can't just get the figures from another alignment of a car that goes straight and expect it to work on another car.

This is true. But, in theory, if all else is the same, you could use the same settings and come up with the same result. I would suspect, if there were two vehicles of similar age, same tyres, rims, etc. and displayed the same problem, you would likely get the same result with the same settings. I wouldn't bet on it, though. Nor would I expect it.

My question is, if you had a car that pulls left, and you got the Super Pro caster kit, should your alignment figures be set to standard (as per Toyota) or is the alignment adjusted for this kit? I suppose the easy way to know is to call Fulcrum.

Maybe I should go backwards a bit and ask, what causes the car to pull left? Does something wear with age that changes the position of the lower control arm(s)? Do brand new cars do it?

[450HP/tonne]

Recommended service specifications (factory setting may be different)

----- Front -----

Toe-In:

0 +/- 2 mm

Ackerman:

Inside 38.37° +/- 2°

Outside (Reference) 33.55°

Camber:

AT-X, Prodigy, Presara -0.67° +/- 0.75°

SX6, ZR6 -0.75° +/- 0.75°

All Right-left difference 0.75° or less

Caster:

AT-X, Prodigy, Presara 2.83° +/- 0.75°

SX6, ZR6 2.75° +/- 0.75°

All Right-left difference 0.75° or less

KPI:

12.33° +/- 0.75°

Right-left difference 0.75° or less

----- Rear -----

Toe-in:

4 +/- 2 mm

Camber:

-1.25° +/- 0.75°

Right-left difference 0.75° or less

[Zerko]

Thanks.

[Alonso]

hi.

Has anyone in perth resolved this problem?... if so could you post the shop you used.

Considering toyota will be a total waist of time, i'm keen in purchasing the kit from fulcrum but not sure who to turn to in perth to install it "correctly" (and same goes for wheel alignment).

thnx

[Zerko]

Give Hillcrest Fulcrum a call. They can probably tell you who to go to in Perth. Did the same for Sydney.

FYI, Wholesale Suspension in Sydney (which has already been mentioned in this thread).

More FYI. Darren from Fulcrum said the Superpro kit would replace standard bushes on both sides. Left side would move the control arm forward, right side would move the control arm back, improving set back (definition - set back)

He also said, factory spec w/a may not be the best setting. They have revised w/a specs to suit particular cars derived from testing.

They do sell the castor kits to Toyota, so obviously Toyota uses them to correct the problem, but he couldn't say which dealers as they must get purchased by head office (a single account).

[Vijith555]

Even i got the same problem and in Perth..so if you guys manage to get it done do let me know. But i just found that its not only left..i find that if i drive on a super flat road it doesnt go to the left..and if i drive on a road that kerbs to the right instead of kerbing to left (normally), the car would go to the right..so its more like the car is sensitive to the road's kerbing or angle..regardless of left or right.

The fact that it would very slightly go to right on right angled roads and left on left angled ones makes me feel like this is how the car is and not a fault..know what i mean? if it had only gone to left regardless of straight, left angled and right angled roads, then i would have felt like it was a defect...Its not a real big issue but would be nice if i can get toyota to do something about it on my next service :)

Anyone in Perth managed to get it fixed by Toyota? Let me know.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Vijith555

[Vijith555]

There are some really interesting inputs here for this problem but i have settled down to think this isnt really a problem that needs to be fixed. Its more like forcing the car than fixing it. Why i tell this is because I drove a few cars other than my Aurion and found they do the same on roads which are curbed to the left. Try driving your car the opposite way (careful doing this because you dont want to go head on with the other car coming towards you :P) on the same road which makes your car go left, and you find that the car sweeps to the right because the angle of the road is reversed. I did this on the Aurion and thought to myself why force the car to go to the right to correct a problem that really is caused by the road itself.

And moreover it is such a slight pull i dont even feel it anymore..Have the car properly wheel aligned and you will hardly feel it.

[Pittsy]

I too noticed the pull to the left when I bought the car (2008 Presara ) The dealer arranged a wheel alignment on delivery but the tech couldn't fix it. It is only a slight pull so I chose to ignore it at the time.

My 85 yo Dad ( x engineer ) drove the car a while ago and the first thing he said to me was "do you know it pulls left a bit" !!

It does annoy me a little and I've tested the pull on all sorts of roads. The pull is not caused by camber, I've driven completely flat roads both directions in the centre and it pulled left both ways.

I'm off to Frankstone Toyota this arvo to get my Security system reset so I'll ask the head mech what gives and see what I can achieve!

Cheers

[jaderd]

Most cars are not particularly sensitive to caster settings. Nevertheless, it is important to ensure that the caster is the same on both sides of the car to avoid the tendency to pull to one side.

rest is here

Caster, Camber and Toe

[Beep Beep]

I've been having the same problem with my Presara and will be taking it in for the first service (at 3500 kms) next Tuesday. After reading this thread, I plan on mentioning the problem and seeing what happens.

Will let you know the result.

Just to update that I took it in and mentioned the problem. The guy said he would take a look but as it was booked for the 1000k checkup they would not be doing a full service.

I haven't been able to take it for a good run, and maybe it is just my imagination, but it does seem to be a bit better. I told them I would monitor it and raise the issue again at the next service if there is still a problem.

Daxta,

Mine was pulling to the left from when I took delivery. I then checked the tyre pressures and found that they were all between 28 & 30 PSI (So much for dealer Delivery checks ) . After pumping them up to 38 PSI (HOT tyre pressures - For COLD tyre pressures this should drop to 35 - 36 PSI), the pull left issue was mostly resolved, and the car definitely holds a straight line better. NOTE :- Pressures described are for tyres and rims which came standard WITH the Presara.

As a result of the above, what I've now noticed is that on a three laned roadway the car now pulls very slightly left when I'm on the left lane, tracks straight as an arrow when I'm in the middle lane and pulls very slightly right when I'm on the right lane. I suspect that it's just a design quirk that the steering mechanism on an Aurion is very sensitive to road camber.

There's apparently a kit (which has been extensively discussed in this forum) which can fix alignment issues but FWIW, I don't think it's worth going for that, specially in my case where I change over to a new car every three years.

The only way to tell if you have an alignment issue is if you can find somewhere where the surface is dead flat and test it out. If there's a salt pan near you, this might be the perfect place to test this (though the salt probably won't be too good for your car! LOL)

Cheers,

BB

[Pittsy]

I asked the Toyota Frankston service rep about the pulling to the left and he didn't know anything, funny old thing!

He suggested calling head office customer service and making the complaint to them.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Pittsy

[Vijith555]

Daxta,

Mine was pulling to the left from when I took delivery. I then checked the tyre pressures and found that they were all between 28 & 30 PSI (So much for dealer Delivery checks ) . After pumping them up to 38 PSI (HOT tyre pressures - For COLD tyre pressures this should drop to 35 - 36 PSI), the pull left issue was mostly resolved, and the car definitely holds a straight line better. NOTE :- Pressures described are for tyres and rims which came standard WITH the Presara.

As a result of the above, what I've now noticed is that on a three laned roadway the car now pulls very slightly left when I'm on the left lane, tracks straight as an arrow when I'm in the middle lane and pulls very slightly right when I'm on the right lane. I suspect that it's just a design quirk that the steering mechanism on an Aurion is very sensitive to road camber.

There's apparently a kit (which has been extensively discussed in this forum) which can fix alignment issues but FWIW, I don't think it's worth going for that, specially in my case where I change over to a new car every three years.

The only way to tell if you have an alignment issue is if you can find somewhere where the surface is dead flat and test it out. If there's a salt pan near you, this might be the perfect place to test this (though the salt probably won't be too good for your car! LOL)

Cheers,

BB

I agree with you BB..i got the wheel alignment done, regularly check my air pressures and found that the car hardly pulls to left..and like i have mentioned earlier, when i drive the car on a dead flat road it drives straight no pulls and if i drive wrong side of a road which has left angle, it pulls to right. Thats what Toyota told me to do when i asked them about this. They asked me to go and see if the car pulls to right on a road with right angle..and if it does that means its balanced and its doing the right thing..but if it is pulling to the left on a road with right angle then you need to look in to it..i drove my friend's VE Commodore recently and found it does the same..so i think its just normal for the car to do it and the Aurion happens to be one of those cars that are sensitive to the roads.. :)

Edited December 21, 2010 by Vijith555

[Beep Beep]

Daxta,

Mine was pulling to the left from when I took delivery. I then checked the tyre pressures and found that they were all between 28 & 30 PSI (So much for dealer Delivery checks ) . After pumping them up to 38 PSI (HOT tyre pressures - For COLD tyre pressures this should drop to 35 - 36 PSI), the pull left issue was mostly resolved, and the car definitely holds a straight line better. NOTE :- Pressures described are for tyres and rims which came standard WITH the Presara.

As a result of the above, what I've now noticed is that on a three laned roadway the car now pulls very slightly left when I'm on the left lane, tracks straight as an arrow when I'm in the middle lane and pulls very slightly right when I'm on the right lane. I suspect that it's just a design quirk that the steering mechanism on an Aurion is very sensitive to road camber.

There's apparently a kit (which has been extensively discussed in this forum) which can fix alignment issues but FWIW, I don't think it's worth going for that, specially in my case where I change over to a new car every three years.

The only way to tell if you have an alignment issue is if you can find somewhere where the surface is dead flat and test it out. If there's a salt pan near you, this might be the perfect place to test this (though the salt probably won't be too good for your car! LOL)

Cheers,

BB

I agree with you BB..i got the wheel alignment done, regularly check my air pressures and found that the car hardly pulls to left..and like i have mentioned earlier, when i drive the car on a dead flat road it drives straight no pulls and if i drive wrong side of a road which has left angle, it pulls to right. Thats what Toyota told me to do when i asked them about this. They asked me to go and see if the car pulls to right on a road with right angle..and if it does that means its balanced and its doing the right thing..but if it is pulling to the left on a road with right angle then you need to look in to it..i drove my friend's VE Commodore recently and found it does the same..so i think its just normal for the car to do it and the Aurion happens to be one of those cars that are sensitive to the roads.. :)

Hey Vijith555,

Did you find that your fuel economy improved too? I found a significant improvement (of about 1 to 2 L/100km better) once I pumped the tyres up and had wheel alignment/Balancing done. .

Cheers,

BB

[Vijith555]

Hey Vijith555,

Did you find that your fuel economy improved too? I found a significant improvement (of about 1 to 2 L/100km better) once I pumped the tyres up and had wheel alignment/Balancing done. .

Cheers,

BB

Toyota already had pumped up the tyres to 38 psi when I had got the car, so I always had a fuel consumption that averaged to about 10.5..well thats with my kind of driving which is the more than occasional heavy foot ;)..i got it down to 36 psi all around thats optimum for both comfort and handling with the suspensions on the sportivo..yours being the presara having it above 36 is good to give it a tighter handling and response..I must say im just more than impressed with the Aurion's fuel consumption :)

[Noodle Boy]

got my car home from its 15000km service. it has the same problem with the steering. apparently the tyres were balanced, resulting in much straighter steering. maybe its not necessarily the wheel alignment that's needed.

[Vijith555]

got my car home from its 15000km service. it has the same problem with the steering. apparently the tyres were balanced, resulting in much straighter steering. maybe its not necessarily the wheel alignment that's needed.

You mean to say after the wheel balancing you got the car steering to the left more or has it made it better?

[Beep Beep]

got my car home from its 15000km service. it has the same problem with the steering. apparently the tyres were balanced, resulting in much straighter steering. maybe its not necessarily the wheel alignment that's needed.

I think it's more likely this would resolve any "vibrations" coming through the steering wheel rather than the pull left issue.

Thinking about it logically, it makes sense to me that differing tyre pressures explains the existence of this issue (assuming your alignment was good in the first place).

Supposing that the front left tyre was UNDER inflated and the front right tyre pressure was significantly higher than the left, it would be reasonable to conclude that the front right tyre would have significantly less rolling resistance than the front left. This translates to something akin to "drag" on the left side of the car which means the front left tyre tends to be harder to roll, and can't match the front right's easier rolling. The result of this is a rotationary force acting on the vehicle, hence the "pull left" effect.

This effect is magnified due to the camber of our roads. This also explains why, if the converse were to be true, we don't notice the "Pull right" effect as it's counter balanced by the camber of the road. Furthermore, this also explains why if you're going at low speed, this pull left effect isn't as pronounced. This is because the force is small but constant, and its effect is cumulative over a long distance at higher speeds rather than over very short distances at slow speeds.

Hmmm... .food for thought.. .perhaps it's not a Toyota design fault after all???? Nah.. that'd suck because it'd be too boring an answer.. It's ALWAYS the manufacturer's fault. :P

Seifer, I would hazard a guess that while doing the servicing, the Techs would've checked and topped up your tyre pressures too.

Cheers,

BB

Edited December 21, 2010 by Beep Beep

[DJKOR]

I guess the topic is always going to remain open for discussion, but I am fairly confident that the issue was a design flaw on my last Sportivo. It always had a pull to the left issue even when driven on what I thought was a fairly level surface and along the centre-line of a two lane road (which you would imagine to be opposite camber on each side to balance it out).

Regardless, I found the fitment of the offset castor bushes to fix the issue and not just over-compensating for an issue that isn't really there. Each to their own.

[Beep Beep]

I guess the topic is always going to remain open for discussion, but I am fairly confident that the issue was a design flaw on my last Sportivo. It always had a pull to the left issue even when driven on what I thought was a fairly level surface and along the centre-line of a two lane road (which you would imagine to be opposite camber on each side to balance it out).

Regardless, I found the fitment of the offset castor bushes to fix the issue and not just over-compensating for an issue that isn't really there. Each to their own.

Heh heh... the other (more likely?) scenario is that the pull left issue DID exist and it WAS a design fault. It was just never acknowledged in public, and the design was quitely fixed and integrated into the build process for MY?? onwards........

That way, Toyota could then simply say, "Problem? What problem? There's nothing about this issue on our system....... It must be random DRIVER error."

Conspiracy theory, or fact?

Cheers,

Chief Inspector BB

PS. Michael Jackson is NOT dead. He faked his death to move to Fiji and is happily running a successful Karaoke bar/Restaurant.

[Wulfkind]

Any specific instructions I need to give them when they fit the fulcrum part? Gonna get it done next week.

[GSV40R-JETDKQ]

Hello everyone,

I share the same interest but I've been sitting quiet and never posted a single question. I think I may have an unanswered question??

Can I ask what is the adjustable length, if adjustment for the 2007 ATX Aurion. I require adjustable bolts to achieve a greater camber than the factory ones. And whether the Nolathane (44270) Camber adj bolts-15mm R have a bit more room to adjust.

Thanks heaps!!!

Edited July 18, 2011 by GSV40R-JETDKQ

[conroe]

Finally, I could not put up with the problem any longer. I decided to get the alignment issue fixed and went to Tyres and More at Silverwater.

I'm happy to say things went very well and the boys there were extremely helpful with putting in the kit and getting the alignment right.