i aint got no snorkel, so am i gona lay down 5 hundie

[anferne]

hi,

a wise man on here once said, removing a snorkel from a airbox (03 corolla) would give me up to 70% of the gain a CAI would provide.

so would i pay $500 for a CAI -- OR remove a snorkel which gives me 70% the advantage anyway?

what ya reckon ?

Edited July 13, 2009 by anferne

[DJKOR]

So your tossing up whether to remove the snorkel (effectively removing the cold air feed) or buying a $500 CAI? That amount seems a bit expensive don't you think? CAI would be the way to go, but not at that price.

[anferne]

Iv already removed it, but seriously would i pay 500$ for a tiny bit more power gain ? its crappy ay.

the trd cai is $550

[jaderd]

i'd be doing abit more research mate...CAI's come up second hand on here fairly often and never that high in price.

also i dont believe just removing snorkel would give 70% of what a CAI will....would need some dyno proof etc...one stock...same car with snorkel removed and same car with CAI on .....same dyno needed..and preferably same day etc.

up to you mate

[whitestivo]

sounds similar, probably goes backwards.

where you going to be getting the air from now, under the bonnet, nice and toasty

whitestivo

whitestivo

[SILVABULLIT]

Whoever told ya that is pullin ya chain bro. 70% tell him he's dreamin.................

[Suprathai]

snorkel removal does not increase the power probably at all, 0.5kw maybe???

$550 for a TRD CAI?

Go get a CES CAI and a drift filter from autobarn. That would be less then $500 for sure.

[chicaboo]

Whoever told ya that is pullin ya chain bro. 70% tell him he's dreamin.................

I posted that information, but not sure about the wiseman part though. :)

Seriously, I have farked around with the intake on my Sportivo for the last 6 months trying to resolve a "Cold Start Hesitation" (yada yada yada) issue I have had since Toyota serviced my car last year. Glad to say that is all better now...

Anyhow, back to the subject matter. I stand by my guesstimate on that 70% figure, and have allowed time for ECU resets to set in and take advantage on all of the configurations I have tried in my own personal testing before making that comment. You guys need to understand that a CAI only adds 4-6kW peak power at best, and that you are telling me a 3-4kW gain isn't possible by taking a huge restriction out of the system...? This is where I will point out that you will not ever possibly get 100% true power figures on the same dyno on the same day that fully reflect the potential peak power figures of all the different intake configurations you could possibly try. The stock ECU will simply not allow it due to it's lengthy self-learning process. I've reset the ECU twice this weekend alone, and it was still hunting for a smooth idle after almost an hour of driving...

Basically, the stock system is great for commuting (which is what I do a lot of), but in summer it draws a lot of heat from behind the headlight/radiator area (Daryl), and you will notice significant power loss when the ECU backs out the timing on a high 30something day. By removing the intake snorkel I found the timing wasn't being pulled on even the hottest of days, so I didn't lose power. I removed the snorkel the day before our Christmas cruise last year. It was about 37C the next day of the cruise, and I hadn't noticed any power gain early on in the day, but nor was I losing the feeling lift gives from the added timing either. Come the drive home straight after lunch when it was still 34C or so, my car just went berserk and felt fantastic (you can ask 313GNT about this, as he saw the back of my car getting further away from him :P). Anyhow, I went from this setup to a popular CAI with ported headers a couple weeks after. I did this mainly in the hope that I would fix my C.S.H. problem. I did feel alot of torque gain, that made my car feel like a 2L, but I really only felt the gains above 7000rpm. Fuel economy picked up, which was really nice. *I attribute the torque gain to the ported headers, as I haven't lost any torque when removing CAIs*

Phase 2 begins: As my C.S.H. issue still didn't go away, and was driving me nuts - both living and working in hilly areas - I had enough and removed/sold the CAI I had at that time. It was clear that a CAI was accentuating the C.S.H. problem, but the problem was still there none the less. So I figured I would give a certain candy apple red coloured CAI a go and see if that would make any difference. Well, the weather was still warmish at the time, and I didn't feel the C.S.H. get worse at all, and this CAI was nice enough, but really felt very much like the car did when de-snorkeled. It had a little more sting up top, and gave a very nice wallop of power when going into lift. So, overall I was extremely pleased with this at the time. However, as the weather got cooler my C.S.H. got insanely bad, worse than it has ever been! This drove me to my limits so I removed this CAI too, cleaned the MAF (again), fiddled with the IAT sensor and put all the stock gear back in the car.

Problem fixed: Now, I had had the C.S.H. for 20,000km worth of driving over a 7 month period (now you get an idea of how long I have struggled/tested with these different setups!), and viola, now it is gone! Of course none of this made sense to me, as I had tried all of this before a couple of times with no cure. The only thing I thing that was different is that I gave the IAT sensor a squeeze when putting it back on the car, causing a loud clicking sound. I immediately thought "oh fark!", but for once I had some joy, and the car was running perfect again!

Anyhow, I've stuffed around with cars mechanically in various forms for 5 years now, with CAIs being something I have given a lot of my time to. I have dyno tested a panel filter on a stock Mazda to give almost a 3kW gain, something I couldn't even feel with my butt dyno. Now I am telling you in the most objective researched way I can, that a de-snorkeled 2ZZ will gain you 70% of the gain you would otherwise get from a CAI setup. You can dispute this all you like, but I've messed around long enough to justify my belief and write this long post that will no doubt fall on deaf ears. Now, to all the haters - it will cost you nothing to remove your stock intake snorkel - so try it! Do that, and then go for a long drive and enjoy what comes next... Go look at the smallest diameter on the snorkel, and and the cross sectional area of the VSV flap on the back of the airbox, and you will appreciate how much more air is getting in the system now. You guys can pay for the dynos, I've already paid for the CAIs...

I've got a base dyno from CES of 108kW ATW, so at the next CES dyno day I will go with my car de-snorkeled and get a new dyno to satisfy everyone. The 108kW dyno was taken in June 2006 using BP Ultimate fuel. The next day will be warmer weather (August or September?) and I will be using Shell V*Power. All in all, I should break even at worst or make 3-4kW, but it should make for interesting (albeit unscientific) results... Dyno below in my sig was taken in early June at CMR at Capalaba.

Gav.

[DJKOR]

Basically, the stock system is great for commuting (which is what I do a lot of), but in summer it draws a lot of heat from behind the headlight/radiator area (Daryl), and you will notice significant power loss when the ECU backs out the timing on a high 30something day.

Maybe on a 1.8l 4-cylinder, but on the V6, any power lost by heat in that area alone isn't quite as noticeable. I find the way my intake pipe sits, it brings in sufficiently cool air thanks to it getting a feed of the air before the radiator.

[chicaboo]

Basically, the stock system is great for commuting (which is what I do a lot of), but in summer it draws a lot of heat from behind the headlight/radiator area (Daryl), and you will notice significant power loss when the ECU backs out the timing on a high 30something day.

Maybe on a 1.8l 4-cylinder, but on the V6, any power lost by heat in that area alone isn't quite as noticeable. I find the way my intake pipe sits, it brings in sufficiently cool air thanks to it getting a feed of the air before the radiator.

But we are talking about a 1.8L 4-cylinder Daryl. :P

[DJKOR]

But we are talking about a 1.8L 4-cylinder Daryl. :P

Yeah I know. Was just backing up my dodgy unrestricted air feed at the front of my intake box. I've had plans to do a full sealed duct to an opening in the front, but it falls under the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category.

[chicaboo]

But we are talking about a 1.8L 4-cylinder Daryl. :P

Yeah I know. Was just backing up my dodgy unrestricted air feed at the front of my intake box. I've had plans to do a full sealed duct to an opening in the front, but it falls under the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category.

You make the most power with the least mods already, what are you worried about? :P

As I've tried to point out already, you get very margainal gains from such mods, and even then, ppl will dispute it when it's not even that much.

[Ray89]

snorkel removal does not increase the power probably at all, 0.5kw maybe???

$550 for a TRD CAI?

Go get a CES CAI and a drift filter from autobarn. That would be less then $500 for sure.

YUP u can get a cheaper CAI lol sif spend 500 on a CAI :D

[CHA54]

The only thing I thing that was different is that I gave the IAT sensor a squeeze when putting it back on the car, causing a loud clicking sound. I immediately thought "oh fark!", but for once I had some joy, and the car was running perfect again!

How did you give the IAT sensor a squeeze? The IAT sensor the ECU uses is built into the MAF housing (the dark bulb shaped bit along side the hotwire tube). Good to see you've resolved your hesitation issue though.

In terms of "sucking hot air in" with intakes pulling air from the bay, once the car is moving the difference in temp is negligable. I've tested MANY different intakes with a few different datalogging setups now and once you're moving the intake temp matches the ambient temp anyway.

[chicaboo]

The only thing I thing that was different is that I gave the IAT sensor a squeeze when putting it back on the car, causing a loud clicking sound. I immediately thought "oh fark!", but for once I had some joy, and the car was running perfect again!

How did you give the IAT sensor a squeeze? The IAT sensor the ECU uses is built into the MAF housing (the dark bulb shaped bit along side the hotwire tube). Good to see you've resolved your hesitation issue though.

In terms of "sucking hot air in" with intakes pulling air from the bay, once the car is moving the difference in temp is negligable. I've tested MANY different intakes with a few different datalogging setups now and once you're moving the intake temp matches the ambient temp anyway.

I'm talking about the little black cylinder on the top/front of the airbox with a brown plug going to it. I've seen this refered to as the IAT & VSV.

Anyhow, I pulled the black cylinder off to inspect it, and as I was holding it by the ends, I gave it a little squeeze, and it made that clicking sound.

I was quite worried that I had damaged it after that, but after putting it back and checking the car by blipping the TB, it revved without stuttering.

Gav.

[Guni]

I don't see any TRD CAI for sale ...

[Guni]

I've got a stock airbox with no snorkel at all running with ported headers and stock zorst. On top of that, I've got motor mount inserts on so I don't know if its that order the stock airbox with no snorkel and ported headers .......

What I can say is although I've lost my LIFT, torque still pretty much felt ..... quiter too !!!

[anferne]

dang that sucks, losing your lift.

[the_random_hero]

In terms of "sucking hot air in" with intakes pulling air from the bay, once the car is moving the difference in temp is negligable. I've tested MANY different intakes with a few different datalogging setups now and once you're moving the intake temp matches the ambient temp anyway.

My God, finally somebody who doesn't fall into the whole "ZOMG ENGINE BAY AIR IS BAD" way of thinking. I've been trying to explain due to the amount of air that actually moves through your engine bay, there is negligible difference between ambient and engine bay temps - even though dyno's don't show it (obviously, bonnets are open on a dyno and the car isn't moving). I've gone from basically a pod filter on the end of my throttlebody to a mandrel alloy CAI setup and do you know what differences I've noticed? Absolutely NOTHING, apart from the fact there's less annoying induction noise.

I've also seen plenty of figures of replacing stock filters with very expensive ones for absolutely zero gain. It all comes down to how much air can be delivered into the airbox, not how much of a restriction the filter is (ie. a poofteenth).

[SuperDave]

it was still hunting for a smooth idle after almost an hour of driving...

The idle can only learn while it is idling

[chicaboo]

it was still hunting for a smooth idle after almost an hour of driving...

The idle can only learn while it is idling

Thanks giggles! I did let it idle for like 10-15 minutes before going for a drive though.

[CHA54]

if you're having trouble with the idle that you can't resolve, the idle valve might be gummed up. I've pulled a couple of ISCV's apart now and the condition was shocking, if the valve gets "sticky" due to PCV return or the use of an oiled filter (eg K&N), the ECU can have a hard time controlling the valve as it wont do exactly as the ECU is instructing, so the ECU then overcompensates and you end up getting stuck in a learning loop.

Take note, dont remove the ISCV until you've purchased a new rubber gasket for it from toyota. Once removed the original rubber gasket expands and is basically impossible to fit back into the recess on the ISCV for fitting back to the underside of the throttle body.

22215-7A680 GASKET, THROTTLE BODY COVER

[Guni]

dang that sucks, losing your lift.

Something's got to give. :P

Life sucks anyway, but it goes on.....

[chicaboo]

if you're having trouble with the idle that you can't resolve, the idle valve might be gummed up. I've pulled a couple of ISCV's apart now and the condition was shocking, if the valve gets "sticky" due to PCV return or the use of an oiled filter (eg K&N), the ECU can have a hard time controlling the valve as it wont do exactly as the ECU is instructing, so the ECU then overcompensates and you end up getting stuck in a learning loop.

Take note, dont remove the ISCV until you've purchased a new rubber gasket for it from toyota. Once removed the original rubber gasket expands and is basically impossible to fit back into the recess on the ISCV for fitting back to the underside of the throttle body.

22215-7A680 GASKET, THROTTLE BODY COVER

Would Subaru Upper Engine Cleaner get down into the ISCV to clean it without having to remove it?

Gav.

[CHA54]

UEC would definately loosen the gunk. Unfortunately it's difficult to run the engine with the intake pipe not connected as it would be best to run the UEC through the ISCV inlet of the throttle body while the engine is running so the manifold vacuum sucks the gunk out of it.

I use throttle body cleaner and a cotton bud to clean them out when the valve is removed from the throttle.