Fog lights.

[boxerboy]

New to me Prodigy...it has fog lights.

Can anyone tell me what the road rules are in regard to when you can, where you can, and when and where you can't use them please?

Cheers

[u54mot]

NSW Road Rules

This is an extract from the NSW Road Rules, but is the same in all states.

The driver of a vehicle must not:

(a) use any fog light fitted to the vehicle unless the driver is driving in fog, mist or under other atmospheric conditions that restrict visibility

[Chrono Trigger]

Funny this, a couple of weeks ago I got pulled over...

was asked to get out of the car... walk to the front...

then the cop asked "if it's raining or foggy?"

it wasn't... then was asked to turn them off... to which i obliged...

then had a chat, and how it's blinding... and he nearly had an accident cos of my fogs... i was let off with a warning > keep em off unless it's rain or fog

lucky me

[boxerboy]

Thanks.

Wot damage does the fine do?

Found some info...the link

Edited June 13, 2010 by boxerboy

[Chrono Trigger]

A few friends have copped a $84 fine for fogs being on.

I'm not 100% on this... I don't think there is any demerit points associated with this offence.

on another note: last time i went RTA they had a brochure highly detailed with all demerit points that one can achieve in NSW. maybe if you have time you can drop in and grab one.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Chrono Trigger

[u54mot]

Fine $84 and 1 Demerit Point in NSW

Edited June 13, 2010 by u54mot

[adventurer007]

I'm glad the rule is bring enforced in NSW. Over here in VIC most idiot drivers have their fog lights not giving a damn that it's blinding to the opposite driver and nobody ever seems to be fined.

[lateralus]

not to start (yet) another debate on foggies, but i still fail to see how it is "blinding". distracting, maybe, but "blinding" is just a horrible exaggeration. foggies FTW!

[lemsta]

On a semi-related note... I'm in QLD, with a Sportivo SX6, and my actual bulbs have been removed (they weren't on the car when I bought it, but I didn't notice, my first car so was all a bit overwhelmed at the time :P). Does anyone know if the lack of bulbs is considered a defect by the police ?

[Mr De Angelo]

Fine $84 and 1 Demerit Point in NSW

There are no points associated with the infringement, just a fine. I copped a $84 fine for having them on by a highway patrol cop and his words were, "Unless it is foggy or ****** down with rain you aren't allowed to have them on".

[moggillsx6]

Not sure what the rules are in other states but I have just finished having this very same argument with the zipperhead Qld Police force. The law clearly states that "fog" lights are yellow. "driving" lights are white/clear. Fog lights incur a fine, driving lights do not. My driving lights are white/clear and it says that they are not be used if they (loosely translated) blind anyone else on the road.

I have had them tested and adjusted by toyota to ensure that they do not face anywhere other than onto the ground directly in front of the car.

My wife got pulled over and the cop gave her a $40 fine for driving with "foog" (yeah thats right he couldn't even spell it) lights on. I suspect because she was a woman, and she blew 0 on the RBT he had originally pulled her over for.

Anyway I took it up with the local sargeant and (of course) he backed his young constable all the way.

So (and yes it was rather petty but a statement none the less) i ventured into a QLD transport office, waited patiently in line, then paid the $40 fine in 5 cents pieces. The girl behind the counter advised me that she couldn't accept it.

I politely informed her she had no grounds to refuse cash payment of this nature and if she had an issue with it to contact Sargeant Zipperhead.

I now carry around the legislation in a laminated folder in the glovebox waiting for the next try hard copper to pull me over so I can have the discussion with him before he writes the ticket. Because once its written you got no hope of getting justice.

[Steven]

Not sure what the rules are in other states but I have just finished having this very same argument with the zipperhead Qld Police force. The law clearly states that "fog" lights are yellow. "driving" lights are white/clear. Fog lights incur a fine, driving lights do not. My driving lights are white/clear and it says that they are not be used if they (loosely translated) blind anyone else on the road.

I have had them tested and adjusted by toyota to ensure that they do not face anywhere other than onto the ground directly in front of the car.

My wife got pulled over and the cop gave her a $40 fine for driving with "foog" (yeah thats right he couldn't even spell it) lights on. I suspect because she was a woman, and she blew 0 on the RBT he had originally pulled her over for.

Anyway I took it up with the local sargeant and (of course) he backed his young constable all the way.

So (and yes it was rather petty but a statement none the less) i ventured into a QLD transport office, waited patiently in line, then paid the $40 fine in 5 cents pieces. The girl behind the counter advised me that she couldn't accept it.

I politely informed her she had no grounds to refuse cash payment of this nature and if she had an issue with it to contact Sargeant Zipperhead.

I now carry around the legislation in a laminated folder in the glovebox waiting for the next try hard copper to pull me over so I can have the discussion with him before he writes the ticket. Because once its written you got no hope of getting justice.

Actually all you've done is make a poor QLD transport girl's (who's probably only getting paid peanuts) life difficult. How very manly of you. I'm sure those law-makers are shivering in their boots.

The end argument is that the lights on the Aurion's are referred to as "fog lights" in the car's manual, which is exactly what they are and the first thing the police prosecutor would throw at you if you contested it in court. Furthermore the fine is only $40 in QLD and no points, so as far as infringements go it's a very lenient one aimed at just giving you a "slap on the wrist" and "now you know, don't do it again" impression.

If you want to argue it by the color of the light itself, go right on ahead and take it to court and see how you go. OR conversely, you could just not drive with them on unless you need to. You decide what is easier.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Steven

[Rolla & Sao Boy]

This is rubbish as i think you get booked for using both or either ..

Its clear as explained in the above post about the colour defineing the type of lights . Fog= Yellow, White/clear =Driving lights yet i know of people who have

got fined regardless the type of lights they had..

I questioned this at the RTA as well on behalf of a friend but didnt get anywhere.

The question is , Why are the lights fitted from the factory in the 1st place if we cant use them ?????

Car manufactures are not stupid fitting blinding spot lights to cars and then selling them however the police think we are stupid driving with them ON.

For many years cars like Pulsar SSS have been fitted with driving lights and every man and his dog have it ON when driving but out of nowhere mostly new car owners are getting targeted and handed fines.

I would understand Import cars being fined as they do have FOG lights and improper use is not safe but cant understand factory fitted driving lights being a problem.

More money making revenue generating scheme ??

Tell the police to go stop some crime for a change !

[Steven]

obviously people have no idea of the difference between driving lights or fog lights, and getting their panties in a pinch.

interesting reads (1 second on google)

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/VehicleDesignStandardsAndAccessories/FogAndDrivingLights.htm

http://www.mynrma.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/mynrma/hs.xsl/how_to_use_your_lights.htm

read it, learn it, apply it. Sorry but those lights on the bottom of your bumper are fog lights, not driving lights.

[moggillsx6]

Steven, I am referring to Qld legislation not Victorian. Yes you are correct, it does say "fog" in the vehicle handbook. But they are only Fog when they are fitted with the yellow beams, not white/clear like they are here in australia. If you turn the "fog" lights on with the white/clear beams you can't see jack **** in front of you. White beams don't penetrate fog, yellow beams do. The legislation is quite clear about there being 2 distinct lights. 1 fog (yellow) 1 white/clear (driving). Fog lights get a fine, driving lights don't.

As for the qld transport worker, she gets paid pretty well to process my 5 cents pieces so I am sure she got over it...

[lateralus]

regardless of however you interpret the nitty gritty legislative bull****, at the end of the day i think that if its a "standard" feature on your car you should be able to use it without penalty. aftermarket, misaligned, ****ty quality foggies from the super cheap auto weekend sale installed in a boggle-eyed fashion on a vr commonwhore is a different matter entirely. either that or the mcg-floodlamp style foggies on the older imprezas.

Edited June 14, 2010 by lateralus

[Hiro]

Steven, I am referring to Qld legislation not Victorian. Yes you are correct, it does say "fog" in the vehicle handbook. But they are only Fog when they are fitted with the yellow beams, not white/clear like they are here in australia. If you turn the "fog" lights on with the white/clear beams you can't see jack **** in front of you. White beams don't penetrate fog, yellow beams do. The legislation is quite clear about there being 2 distinct lights. 1 fog (yellow) 1 white/clear (driving). Fog lights get a fine, driving lights don't.

As for the qld transport worker, she gets paid pretty well to process my 5 cents pieces so I am sure she got over it...

Funny that, because if you read VSI G 1.0 you'll see a specific mention of fog lights being "white or yellow light". The difference between fog and driving lights is to do with their wiring (driving lights can only be turned on in conjunction with high beams, fog lights just need parkers), mounting (driving lights are traditionally high and centred whilst fogs are low and wide) and beam (fogs are low, wide and with a sharp cutoff, driving lights are high and wide with long range)

Ohh, and the thing about "yellow light penetrating fog better than white light" is bull****. It has to do with visibility and reducing glare - both white and yellow light "penetrate" normal fog the same. The effect known as Rayleigh Scattering (the reason why the sky appears blue and what most uneducated people claim is the reason why yellow light is more visible than white in fog) doesn't take affect until the light is passing through a medium of a "size" (in the case of fog, the size of the water droplets) that is smaller than the wavelength of the light, and water droplets are much, much bigger than the wavelength of any of the colours of the visible spectrum

Edited June 14, 2010 by Hiro

[Rolla & Sao Boy]

obviously people have no idea of the difference between driving lights or fog lights, and getting their panties in a pinch.

interesting reads (1 second on google)

http://www.vicroads....ivingLights.htm

http://www.mynrma.co...your_lights.htm

read it, learn it, apply it. Sorry but those lights on the bottom of your bumper are fog lights, not driving lights.

10 years ago there would have been a clear cut diff between fog lights and driving lights . Law interpretation changes doesnt mean people dont know the difference. Show an old timer the 2 lights (foggies and Driving) and he will explain in old fashion terms which one is what light.

10 years ago you wouldnt have 1 second answers from google to back your point , if you had been given a fine you would have been arguing the same point at the time ..

lateralus puts more the peoples view across , not the laws.This debate was more about common sense.

[boxerboy]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I hope it helps someone avoid a fine.

A part of me tells me the foggies are a bit useless, as they'll rarely get used, and that using them whilst not required is about the look. Maybe not for all, but maybe for some.

I was breathalyzed today, and took the opportunity to ask the LEO what the fine was in Vic for using the foggies inappropriately. She immediately said $172!!! That's more than a little slap on the wrist, it's a punch on the nose <_<

[moggillsx6]

HIRO, you just backed up my argument. The legislation clearly gives 2 different sets of lights. My "driving" lights are exactly as described in the legislation and yet the cops fined me. Explain that??

And white light DOES NOT penetrate fog. Next time I drive to grafton at 1am i'll take you with me and you'll see what I mean.

[freedy1001]

So (and yes it was rather petty but a statement none the less) i ventured into a QLD transport office, waited patiently in line, then paid the $40 fine in 5 cents pieces. The girl behind the counter advised me that she couldn't accept it.

I politely informed her she had no grounds to refuse cash payment of this nature and if she had an issue with it to contact Sargeant Zipperhead.

I now carry around the legislation in a laminated folder in the glovebox waiting for the next try hard copper to pull me over so I can have the discussion with him before he writes the ticket. Because once its written you got no hope of getting justice.

According to the Currency Act 1965, coins are legal tender for payment of amounts which are limited as follows:

not exceeding 20c if 1c and/or 2c coins are offered (however, it should be noted that these coins have been withdrawn from circulation but are still legal tender);

not exceeding $5 if any of 5c, 10c, 20c and 50c coins are offered;

not exceeding 10 times the face value if coins in the range 50c to $10 inclusive are offered; and

to any value if coins of value greater than $10 are offered.

The girl behind the counter was quite right legally in refusing payment in that form.

[DJKOR]

I politely informed her she had no grounds to refuse cash payment of this nature and if she had an issue with it to contact Sargeant Zipperhead.

According to the Currency Act 1965, coins are legal tender for payment of amounts which are limited as follows:

not exceeding 20c if 1c and/or 2c coins are offered (however, it should be noted that these coins have been withdrawn from circulation but are still legal tender);

not exceeding $5 if any of 5c, 10c, 20c and 50c coins are offered;

not exceeding 10 times the face value if coins in the range 50c to $10 inclusive are offered; and

to any value if coins of value greater than $10 are offered.

The girl behind the counter was quite right legally in refusing payment in that form.

LOL. That is gold. Love the comeback.

Man, this thread is really going places.

[Steven]

HIRO, you just backed up my argument. The legislation clearly gives 2 different sets of lights. My "driving" lights are exactly as described in the legislation and yet the cops fined me. Explain that??

And white light DOES NOT penetrate fog. Next time I drive to grafton at 1am i'll take you with me and you'll see what I mean.

Why are your lights exactly the same as legislation? To assume they are, they must: Be white, be housed in a projector that project the lights in the proper manner as opposed to the short/wide design of the foglight reflector (ie just changing your bulb isn't going to do this), be positioned appropriately on the vehicle, and only operate in conjunction with your headlights only.

By the way, QLD legislation clearly states the fog lights can be either white or yellow, so I don't know where you got your information from stating they are only yellow. See below.

In other words, provided the positioning of the reflector on the front of the car is okay, you can quite easily convert your fog lamps into driving lights by replacing the whole projector housing and bulb arrangement, and making the required wiring changes so they only work when they're supposed to.

Did you do this?

Transport Operations (Road Use Management—Vehicle Standards and Safety) Regulation

1999

Page 96 Reprint 5C effective 1 December 2009

Division 12 Fog lights

89 Front fog lights

(1) A pair of front fog lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle with

4 or more wheels.

(2) A pair of front fog lights, or a single front fog light, may be

fitted to a motorbike or motortrike.

(3) A pair of front fog lights fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or

more wheels must have the centre of each light not over

400mm from the nearer side of the vehicle unless the centres

of the lights are at least 600mm apart.

(4) If the top of the front fog light is higher than the top of any

low-beam headlight on the vehicle, the centre of the fog light

must not be higher than the centre of the low-beam headlight.

(5) A front fog light must—

(a) when on—

(i) project white or yellow light in front of the vehicle;

and

(ii) be a low-beam light; and

(B) be able to be operated independently of any headlight;

and

© be fitted so the light from it does not reflect off the

vehicle into the driver’s eyes.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Steven

[Foss]

NSW Road Rules

or under other atmospheric conditions that restrict visibility

Dunno about everyone else, but for me night time is a condition that restricts my visibility to buggery. Driving with my 'fog' lamps on as well as my headlights improves my visibility greatly.

[Hiro]

HIRO, you just backed up my argument. The legislation clearly gives 2 different sets of lights. My "driving" lights are exactly as described in the legislation and yet the cops fined me. Explain that??

And white light DOES NOT penetrate fog. Next time I drive to grafton at 1am i'll take you with me and you'll see what I mean.

You missed my point, on both occasions. Yes there is a distinct difference between fog lights and driving lights, but you specifically said that QLD legislation is that fog lights are always yellow and driving lights are white/clear - I provided documentation from Queensland Transport to directly refute that, and Steven then backs me up on it too.

As for the penetration, you fail at physics. There is a difference between how well the light can "penetrate" the fog, and how well it reflects back to you and makes things visible. White light (which contains yellow light, remember) penetrates fog just as easily as selective-yellow, but to the human eye the yellow light might appear more visible to the human eye because of the contrast of the light to the "colour" of the fog, and how it reflects back off road-signs and the like. Effectively, the lights will "penetrate" the fog the same, but in certain circumstances the selective-yellow will provide better visibility.

I'll quote a lighting expert here

"What explains the persistent subjective preference amongst experienced poor-weather drivers for yellow fog lamps, despite decades of white fog lamp prevalence? Selective yellow light can improve a driver's ability to see in fog or rain or snow, but not because it 'penetrates fog better' or 'reflects less off droplets' as is commonly thought. That effect is known as Rayleigh Scattering, and is why the sky appears blue. However, it occurs only when the droplet size is equal or smaller than the wavelength of the light, which is certainly not the case with ordinary fog, rain or snow. Roadway Fog droplets are several orders of magnitude larger than visible light wavelengths, so there's no Rayleigh Scattering.

So, why do yellow fog lamps seem to work better? It's because of the way the human eye interacts with different colors of light. Blue and violet are very difficult for the human optical system to process correctly. They are the shortest visible wavelengths and tend to focus in front of our eyes' retinae, rather than upon it. To demonstrate this to yourself, find a dark blue store front sign or something else that's a dark, pure blue against a dark background in the absence of white light—from any appreciable distance, it's almost impossible for your eyes to see the blue lighted object as a sharply defined form;the edges blur significantly. Deep blue runway lights exhibit the same effect; check it out the next time you land at night.

Blue also is a very difficult color of light to look at; it stimulates the reaction we call glare. Within the range of allowable white light, bluer headlamps have been shown to be 46% more glaring than yellower ones for a given intensity of light — see studies here and here. So, it seems culling the blue out of the spectrum lightens the optical workload and reduces glare. For a more detailed examination of this effect with respect to driving in foul weather, see Bullough & Rea's study on the topic."