Oil Change Overkill

[Tony Prodigy]

LiquiMoly is the more widely preferred product across Europe and the good news seems to be spreading. Those Germans are very clever people indeed.

So how long would he have had to run the engine for with the "flushing oil" following the initial 15 minute flush ?

 

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

LiquiMoly is the more widely preferred product across Europe and the good news seems to be spreading. Those Germans are very clever people indeed.

So how long would he have had to run the engine for with the "flushing oil" following the initial 15 minute flush ?

 

He did mention in the video "after 10 minutes" for the 2nd flush. It is what I would have expected to get the flushing oil up to temperature and a chance for the detergent additives in the flushing oil to further clean the engine internals.

[campbeam]

Needed some exercise and sunshine so did another oil change today at 230,140km. This oil change interval is 3569km whereas I thought it would be approx. 2500km.

For a few reasons, I decided that another oil change overkill was necessary and I tweaked it as follows.

1. Drain hot engine oil from both pan and filter housing

2. Clean filter housing and cartridge [lots of sludge particles present]

3. Refill with diesel [used from previous flush] via the PCV opening in the valve cover.

4. Idle engine for 10 minutes.

5. Drain hot diesel from both pan and filter housing [sludge particle still present].

6. Pour hot diesel via the PCV opening in the valve cover and drain. 

7. Clean filter housing and replace cartridge [had a slightly used filter]

8. Refill with new diesel via the PCV opening in the valve cover.

9. Idle engine for 10 minutes.

10. Drain hot diesel from both pan and filter housing.

11. Pour hot diesel via the PCV opening in the valve cover and drain. 

12. Refill with flushing oil [used from last oil change] .

13. Idle engine for 10 minutes.

14. Drain hot flushing oil from both pan and filter housing.

15. Clean filter housing and fit new filter cartridge.

16. Refill engine with correct amount of engine oil

17. Engine oil is so clear, it is difficult to read level on dipstick

18. Check oil level at a later date when dipstick level can be read more easily.

Overall, I spent about 3 hours. All ready for a decent drive and get the engine oil up to operating temperature to further loosen any remaining oil sludge particles.

 

[Tony Prodigy]

There is joy in repetition, in this case for sure Ash. Ol' Sludgy is coming good after a long desludging regiment.

8 hours ago, campbeam said:

17. Engine oil is so clear, it is difficult to read level on dipstick

So true. The nature of fully synthetic oil has it trying to leave the dip stick too, the way water sheets away on a slick painted surface.

[campbeam]

In the past few weeks, I have driven about 860km with some decent trips where the engine oil has got up to operating temperature for a decent amount of time. Last weekend I added about 100ml of ATF to the engine oil as an aid to get rid of any remaining sludge and help to deep clean the engine internals.

A few days later "Sludgy" very unexpectedly blew some smoke on startup. Her way of annoying me to get some more desludging attention.

This morning, I had another 2 hour therapy session with myself and "Sludgy" flushing the engine with diesel and then flushing oil. Existing engine oil [used for 860km] looked quite dark in the change pan has been reused and is now quite clear on the dipstick. Existing oil filer cartridge and housing were cleaned using petrol then air dried.

Overall, quite surprised at the amount of oil sludge particles that were present.

Planning upon doing a follow up check in 3 weeks so may end up recycling oil from my project vehicles to temporarily replace the current engine oil before doing another full overkill oil change.

[KAA]

Damn Ash I had hoped Sludgy was behaving itself by now, you know it is doing it too annoy you and sounds like it is winning right now, I am sure you will get your own back soon mate

KAA

[campbeam]

7 hours ago, KAA said:

Damn Ash I had hoped Sludgy was behaving itself by now, you know it is doing it too annoy you and sounds like it is winning right now, I am sure you will get your own back soon mate

KAA

 

7 hours ago, KAA said:

Damn Ash I had hoped Sludgy was behaving itself by now, you know it is doing it too annoy you and sounds like it is winning right now, I am sure you will get your own back soon mate

KAA

Definitely annoyed. Lots more attention planned. In the meantime, I have done a few tips and tricks under the engine cover to help the desludging.

"Sludgy" is now behaving herself and I rewarded her with a brief Italian Tune Up.

Inspection camera has just arrived [still unopened] so will get batteries to be ready to use when I next drop the engine oil.

[Tony Prodigy]

It has been a pretty frustrating but somewhat rewarding experience having to desludgify ol' Sludgy lol..

"The trials and Tribulations of Ol' Sludgy" would be a befitting title 

Looking forward to oil pan cam and wherever else it may be able to probe. Post up some pics of your device Ash.

[Sebastian Woodhouse]

There’s a rather significant part of me that admires your persistence, but that’s tempered by the “damnit man, valve covers off, sump off, diesel and a brush”

The sludge must be like a sandbar in the upper parts of the motor and really a day of effort on “mechanical” removal followed by another few of your extreme flushing changes would deal it it.

That said I get the logic of what you’re doing and to each their own 🙂

Which does remind me I do have to give Sebastian an oil change and fresh plugs.  Will send him to my gearbox whisperer for a gearbox flush before too long also. 

 

[campbeam]

😁😁

58 minutes ago, Sebastian Woodhouse said:

There’s a rather significant part of me that admires your persistence, but that’s tempered by the “damnit man, valve covers off, sump off, diesel and a brush”

The sludge must be like a sandbar in the upper parts of the motor and really a day of effort on “mechanical” removal followed by another few of your extreme flushing changes would deal it it.

That said I get the logic of what you’re doing and to each their own 🙂

Which does remind me I do have to give Sebastian an oil change and fresh plugs.  Will send him to my gearbox whisperer for a gearbox flush before too long also. 

 

I have previously posted that the girlfriend has been saying to me for 3 years that I was hard headed before I finally agreed with her. This is the approach that I decided upon for my own reasons. Definitely recommend to others to remove the front valve cover and give it a thorough desludging.

In frustration, I almost gave up a year ago and tried to remove the valve cover but later discovered that I had overlooked one bolt in the middle.

It also does not help that most of my regular driving is less than 10kms so that is ideal conditions for more sludge build up on an ongoing basis.

Now that I have an inspection camera, I will be able to get a better look into the valve cover. It looks totally clean from what I have seen with a flashlight throught the oil filler opening. Almost there and a few 2 hour highway drives will help to get the final result. 

[campbeam]

I did use the inspection camera yesterday morning and somewhat surprised that there is oil sludge present. Engine oil is already looking a darker colour. This afternoon I looked at the oil filter cartridge and there was a fair bit of sludge particles caught in the filter material.

End result is that I did another overkill oil change procedure at 231250 kms on the odometer.

I used the next oil in line to be used from my accumulated engine oil hoard, Castrol Edge 5W-40 which is full synthetic with their Titanium FST. Soon find out how well it cleans the engine internals.

[Tony Prodigy]

Did you save the image files Ash ? How good was the picture ?

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Did you save the image files Ash ? How good was the picture ?

I did take a picture or 2 and maybe a few seconds of video. Saved to the TF card but I do not currently have a card reader.

Picture was of very good quality [according to my imperfect vision]. Definitely worth having. Last night at 9PM, I shone my LED flashlight down the oil filler opening in the valve cover and could see sludge at the end of the camshaft. Good excuse to go for a few day trips.

[Tony Prodigy]

26 minutes ago, campbeam said:

I did take a picture or 2 and maybe a few seconds of video. Saved to the TF card but I do not currently have a card reader.

Definitely handy to have one. I have several TF readers just in case one flakes out and they're cheap as chips.

27 minutes ago, campbeam said:

Last night at 9PM, I shone my LED flashlight down the oil filler opening in the valve cover and could see sludge at the end of the camshaft. Good excuse to go for a few day trips.

That would be the best medicine in conjunction with your oil change overkill regime. Turn it into a washing machine over a few days. If you're inclined to even perform an oil change before returning, it may help too.

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

If you're inclined to even perform an oil change before returning, it may help too.

In previous years, I have done an annual return trip between Brisbane and Wagga Wagga with an oil change before and also upon return,

Certainly previous thought about doing an oil change before the return journey. I will just have to pre-plan and make it happen. No excuses because I have a stockpile of engine oil that has to be used and lots of filter cartridges.

[ZZT86]

Been wanting to add a postscript to this thread about oil changes & regular short driving distances.

Lately, due to lockdowns in "the greatest lockdown city in the world - Melbourne" & due to a lack of work, I haven't done my usual 30-45min driving trip every morning/arvo's 5 days a week but far less & more of the short 10min stints.

My latest 7,500kms was a mix, mostly longer fwy distances but also a lot more of the short & the car was due for a service which I did a week ago. I replaced the oil with Nulon Full Synthetic 5W30 & replaced the oil filter as I usually do & was very surprised to note a tiny amount of sludge/dirt in about 3-4 spots on the filter inner creases.

Engine air filter had also become a little dusty for it's 20K kms but was still fine for another 7.5K km stint.

Goes to prove that even at 7.5K kms on a relatively new car with oil that looked perfect in colour & consistency, short trip type driving is quietly at work in the background wreaking havoc on your engine. I definitely wouldn't go beyond the 7,500 kms OCI if you only typically do short driving stints.

Edited October 5, 2021 by ZZT86
clarification of meaning

[campbeam]

7 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Been wanting to add a postscript to this thread about regular oil changes & regular short driving distances.

Lately, due to lockdowns in "the greatest lockdown city in the world - Melbourne" & due to a lack of work, I haven't done my usual 30-45min driving trip every morning/arvo's 5 days a week but far less & more of the short 10min stints.

My latest 7,500kms was a mix, mostly longer fwy distances but also a lot more of the short & the car was due for a service which I did a week ago. I replaced the oil with Nulon Full Synthetic 5W30 & replaced the oil filter as I usually do & was very surprised to note a tiny amount of sludge/dirt in about 3-4 spots on the filter inner creases.

Engine air filter had also become a little dusty for it's 20K kms but was still fine for another 7.5K km stint.

Goes to prove that even at 7.5K kms on a relatively new car with oil that looked perfect in colour & consistency, the short trips & driving style are quietly at work in the background wreaking havoc on your engine.

There is another thread about the oil change interval. Your recent experience gives you an insight into how quickly oil sludge can start to appear with short distance driving. 

You may not have noticed but my latest oil change interval was only 1,110 kms. I did top up the engine oil with approx. 100mls of ATF which has a lot of detergent additives. Engine oil was dark colour and looked to be very contaminated. Also the inner creases of the oil filter cartridge had a very noticable amount of sludge particles.

Got a few thoughts about whether to start another thread about desludging with before and after pictures of the engine oil. At the moment, the new engine oil is a clear transparent colour on the dipstick.

[Tony Prodigy]

14 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Been wanting to add a postscript to this thread about regular oil changes & regular short driving distances.

Lately, due to lockdowns in "the greatest lockdown city in the world - Melbourne" & due to a lack of work, I haven't done my usual 30-45min driving trip every morning/arvo's 5 days a week but far less & more of the short 10min stints.

My latest 7,500kms was a mix, mostly longer fwy distances but also a lot more of the short & the car was due for a service which I did a week ago. I replaced the oil with Nulon Full Synthetic 5W30 & replaced the oil filter as I usually do & was very surprised to note a tiny amount of sludge/dirt in about 3-4 spots on the filter inner creases.

Engine air filter had also become a little dusty for it's 20K kms but was still fine for another 7.5K km stint.

Goes to prove that even at 7.5K kms on a relatively new car with oil that looked perfect in colour & consistency, the short trips & driving style are quietly at work in the background wreaking havoc on your engine.

That's interesting. So so you think the few particles of carbon would be due to doing the 7.5K interval oil changes or from your lockdown time short trips ?

The million dollar question would be from where those particles originated. If I had to guess, I'd probably say from around the pistons/rings.

My Aurion (wifey) does an approximate journey in the morning of around 35 minutes, then in the afternoon around 35-40 minutes 5 days a week. She will drop my boy off to school then go straight to work, then straight home as I pick him up after I finish. Weekends are a couple of short trips, mainly to the shops for the grocery runs. Can't say that the short trips have hurt as I have never seen even a speckle of carbon sludge deposits in the filter. I'll take an even closer look next time.

When you say "driving style", would I be correct in assuming a smooth, non aggressive approach ?
We drive our Aurion quite easily and never aggressively. I give it some stick the rare occasion I get to drive it, but nothing that would be called aggresive. Just enough to feel the torque. I don't see the point in thrashing it.

[campbeam]

12 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

The million dollar question would be from where those particles originated. If I had to guess, I'd probably say from around the pistons/rings.

https://blog.amsoil.com/how-engine-sludge-forms-and-how-to-prevent-it/

After the oil sludge has formed, then it can accumulate around the piston rings e.g. the oil control rings. Proven recommended solution is to have shorter oil change intervals. Drive short distance, apply a short oil change interval. Drive longer distances then a longer oil change interval can be applied.

[ZZT86]

 

15 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

So so you think the few particles of carbon would be due to doing the 7.5K interval oil changes or from your lockdown time short trips ?

Definitely not the OCI but rather the extra short trips I did which is out of the norm. I have altered my post above for clarification.

I was surprised to see the air filter so dusty but it was OK & conclude dirt didn't get in through there so it can only be the bigginings of sludge formation. We're talking a few spots of 1-2mm in size - that's it. It's great that the 2GR-FE has a canister style oil filter which allows us all to actually easily examine the used filter material.

15 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

When you say "driving style", would I be correct in assuming a smooth, non aggressive approach ?

Again I have clarified what I meant but not really driving style but rather the type of driving done, ie: short stints.

It takes approx 15min for oil to get normally hot, ideally to 100^oC or more where it can begin to burn off & evaporate the nasties which help cause sludge like cold start fuel dilution & water condensation. The oils additives pack can only do so much to combat those 2 elements alone.

So unless you're consistently thrashing the motor, driving style as such isn't a worrying factor, rather the type of driving done.

[campbeam]

On 9/27/2021 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Woodhouse said:

There’s a rather significant part of me that admires your persistence, but that’s tempered by the “damnit man, valve covers off, sump off, diesel and a brush”

The sludge must be like a sandbar in the upper parts of the motor and really a day of effort on “mechanical” removal followed by another few of your extreme flushing changes would deal it it.

That said I get the logic of what you’re doing and to each their own 🙂

Which does remind me I do have to give Sebastian an oil change and fresh plugs.  Will send him to my gearbox whisperer for a gearbox flush before too long also. 

 

I have kept your post in mind. Finally removed the front valve cover last weekend hoping to see the valve train and cylinder head to be relatively sludge free. Not to be. No reward for persistence in this case. Others with their experience have confirmed that removal and thorough clean of the valve cover is the real immediate solution.

I was totally surprised and disappointed at the amount of oil sludge still present after 6 years of short interval oil changes. Following are the before pictures. Only saving grace is that the VVTi system and timing chains were relatively clean.

Following screenshots are of the valve cover after being cleaned using 5 litres of petrol and a toothbrush etc. Cleaning of the cylinder head and valve train was more of a wipe down and using a screwdriver to scrape off the oil sludge deposits.

After re-assembly and a test drive, I ended up with the engine revving higher and a P0021 error code. Solution was fortunately a change of oil. Oil being changed was very dark in colour and slower to drain indicating a high oil viscosity.

I did swap over the oil control valves so was able to eliminate a clogged valve as a contributing cause. I would say that loosened oil sludge made its way into the VVTi system resulting in the timing being too advanced. Change of oil filter cartridge and a flush using diesel then another flush with recycled engine oil did make a difference to the idle speed reducing it from 1500 rpm to about 1000 rpm.

After some more driving this morning, all is back to normal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ZZT86]

Yuk ! Not the worst I've seen but yeah, I feel your pain given your very considerable effort thus far. You should try cleaning using ethanol or E85, here are 2 pics of my 9 year/95K km old Hachi fuel filter canister after a life mostly running E85.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by ZZT86

[campbeam]

3 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

You should try ethanol or E85

I assume that you mean to use ethanol or E85 as a better cleaning agent than petrol for cleaning the oil sludge off the valve cover. At the time, it was a case of using 91 ULP petrol which I had on hand.

I will keep it in mind for when I next remove that valve cover. 

I anticipate that next time I will be planning upon doing a more thorough clean up of the cylinder head and camshaft retaining hardware including an initial wash/flush of any loosened/dislodged oil sludge out via the sump drain hole before starting the oil change procedure.

[ZZT86]

Yes, ethanol is a great cleaning solvent. In your case you may want to let it dwel for a while & then take to it with a brush - worth trying 👍

[campbeam]

I have just viewed this YouTube video that was posted about a year ago. This was the follow up video to the one where he did an engine flush and an oil change using Mobil 1. Surprising how dirty the oil is and the number of oil changes to finally get clear engine oil. Something else that I noted was the closing comment that the next oil change interval will be reduced to 3000 miles [5000 kms].