Turbo 2ZZ from CES

[CAP]

To say an s/c is best for a 2zz is a bit general.

I think fitting a s/c to a 2zz in a Celica or Corolla is more ideal because of packaging/space issues under the bonnet. The positioning of an s/c makes it an easier install and also perhaps easier to maintain. But if you overcome those issues, then the choice between s/c and turbo then comes to what the owner wants.

Both have their positives and negatives.

[MR22ZZ]

twin-charger FTW!!!!

[SILVABULLIT]

I have chatted with the owner and the next plan of attack is coilovers. Brakes are on the agenda and I have also got him thinking about putting a LSD in the box that is proly his main concern for breakage!!

As for the engine blowing up can't really see that happening as CES have pretty much done what Xoom has done to his and strengthened all the "weak" points of the internals as far as running boost is concerned.

[51EKA]

i still maintain the best forced induction setup for the 2ZZ is supercharging!

Just look at the RunX compressor & Lotus that use the 2zz supercharged engine.

There is also plenty of room to play with the ECU & charger on them!

Why?

The 2zz pair will a decent size turbo will **** all over a supercharged 2zz.

The best i've seen in a lotus exige s makes 250hp atw @ 11psi. A average turboed 2zz will make that and more at 7psi.

Turbo now days are efficient, and a correctly sized turbo will have very little lag.

Only good thing about s/c is that it will always be on boost and make power. But the gains are minimal. 2zz with off the shelf s/c kit make around 220hp atw. In Aust dyno, that would be under 200hp atw. And hardly any room for improvement when you want more power.

just face it for the 2zz S/C is a better option! and with the right tuning and stronger internals it will make far more than your claimed 250hp

Where's the proof?

Do you know what it takes for a s/c to make that much power on a 2zz with low comp piston? You will need to run far more boost than you would on a turbo. You would need a s/c that can handle that much speed and yet remain efficient. You would have to match a larger s/c to the 2zz which would mean more loss due to running the s/c off the crank.

S/C isn't bad, but it's not the way to go when your looking for big hp.

You tell me what your reasoning behind s/c 2zz being far more superior. Show me some proof. Keep in mind that usa dyno read 10-15% more than dyno dynamic dyno in aust.

[CORZZA]

i still maintain the best forced induction setup for the 2ZZ is supercharging!

Just look at the RunX compressor & Lotus that use the 2zz supercharged engine.

There is also plenty of room to play with the ECU & charger on them!

Why?

The 2zz pair will a decent size turbo will **** all over a supercharged 2zz.

The best i've seen in a lotus exige s makes 250hp atw @ 11psi. A average turboed 2zz will make that and more at 7psi.

Turbo now days are efficient, and a correctly sized turbo will have very little lag.

Only good thing about s/c is that it will always be on boost and make power. But the gains are minimal. 2zz with off the shelf s/c kit make around 220hp atw. In Aust dyno, that would be under 200hp atw. And hardly any room for improvement when you want more power.

just face it for the 2zz S/C is a better option! and with the right tuning and stronger internals it will make far more than your claimed 250hp

Where's the proof?

Do you know what it takes for a s/c to make that much power on a 2zz with low comp piston? You will need to run far more boost than you would on a turbo. You would need a s/c that can handle that much speed and yet remain efficient. You would have to match a larger s/c to the 2zz which would mean more loss due to running the s/c off the crank.

S/C isn't bad, but it's not the way to go when your looking for big hp.

You tell me what your reasoning behind s/c 2zz being far more superior. Show me some proof. Keep in mind that usa dyno read 10-15% more than dyno dynamic dyno in aust.

Well those are the dyno graphs iv seen. All im saying is that to me S/C is far better suited to the set up of a 2zz!

The fact that the manufacturers favoured the S/C over the Turbo is one.

2zz's power is mainly top end. S/C will generate far greater torque lower down than a turbo will.

And who said anything about the compression staying low?

With a vortech charger you would be boosting around the same as you would with a turbo.

With a Eaton charger you would have to boost alot more.

@ Bill yes your 2zz runs very well on turbo setup. Maybe one day when i have the inspiration to S/C the stivo we can line up

[xoom]

i think it might b worth mentioning here that i can see both points of view and i think you are both going to have to agree to disagree ..... this is not the first forum ive seen the s/c vs turbo debate and something tells me it wont be the last .....

i think pete what you might need to look into is the fact that on a LHD 2zz/1zz car a turbo setup is a more enticing path to take where as on a RHD 2zz/1zz i would have to agree with you that s/c is a much more enticing path to take ..... this is simply due to real estate ..... nothing more .......

with regards to your comment about torque/power etc ..... mate with the technology in turbo's today there aint no more "turbo lag" unless u go to big for ur setup ..... mate ive got mine making & holding 9psi @ a notch under 3K probably around 2800 rpms through to redline ..... now u tell me when r u gonna be driving under 2800rpms ????? test it out next time ur out driving .... where ur @ in terms of speed in each gear @ 3K rpms and ull see what i mean by the fact that it aint an issue ......

Again with regards to this arguement each to their own ..... what would make a whole lot of people more satisfied is if people actually actioned what they spoke about ....... i would love to see more turbo'd or s/charged 1zz's or 2zz's in aus but i guess that is probably to much to ask hey when we can all sit behind our keyboards and talk from "what we've read" rather than "experienced" ........ hence y i dont comment on s/c setups ...........

[kym11m]

i think it might b worth mentioning here that i can see both points of view and i think you are both going to have to agree to disagree ..... this is not the first forum ive seen the s/c vs turbo debate and something tells me it wont be the last .....

i think pete what you might need to look into is the fact that on a LHD 2zz/1zz car a turbo setup is a more enticing path to take where as on a RHD 2zz/1zz i would have to agree with you that s/c is a much more enticing path to take ..... this is simply due to real estate ..... nothing more .......

with regards to your comment about torque/power etc ..... mate with the technology in turbo's today there aint no more "turbo lag" unless u go to big for ur setup ..... mate ive got mine making & holding 9psi @ a notch under 3K probably around 2800 rpms through to redline ..... now u tell me when r u gonna be driving under 2800rpms ????? test it out next time ur out driving .... where ur @ in terms of speed in each gear @ 3K rpms and ull see what i mean by the fact that it aint an issue ......

Again with regards to this arguement each to their own ..... what would make a whole lot of people more satisfied is if people actually actioned what they spoke about ....... i would love to see more turbo'd or s/charged 1zz's or 2zz's in aus but i guess that is probably to much to ask hey when we can all sit behind our keyboards and talk from "what we've read" rather than "experienced" ........ hence y i dont comment on s/c setups ...........

WELL SAID !!! ;) ;)

[Northy]

i think it might b worth mentioning here that i can see both points of view and i think you are both going to have to agree to disagree ..... this is not the first forum ive seen the s/c vs turbo debate and something tells me it wont be the last .....

i think pete what you might need to look into is the fact that on a LHD 2zz/1zz car a turbo setup is a more enticing path to take where as on a RHD 2zz/1zz i would have to agree with you that s/c is a much more enticing path to take ..... this is simply due to real estate ..... nothing more .......

with regards to your comment about torque/power etc ..... mate with the technology in turbo's today there aint no more "turbo lag" unless u go to big for ur setup ..... mate ive got mine making & holding 9psi @ a notch under 3K probably around 2800 rpms through to redline ..... now u tell me when r u gonna be driving under 2800rpms ????? test it out next time ur out driving .... where ur @ in terms of speed in each gear @ 3K rpms and ull see what i mean by the fact that it aint an issue ......

Again with regards to this arguement each to their own ..... what would make a whole lot of people more satisfied is if people actually actioned what they spoke about ....... i would love to see more turbo'd or s/charged 1zz's or 2zz's in aus but i guess that is probably to much to ask hey when we can all sit behind our keyboards and talk from "what we've read" rather than "experienced" ........ hence y i dont comment on s/c setups ...........

i think your power is due to the fact you replaced all your fluids with garlic sauce.....

[xoom]

i think your power is due to the fact you replaced all your fluids with garlic sauce.....

corey ..... ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ....... when i gave u the secret to 100kw increase i didnt expect u would give it out on da net mate :angry: :angry: :angry: ahhhhhhh atleast none of u knw how mama makes it :spiteful: :spiteful: :spiteful:

[Northy]

i think your power is due to the fact you replaced all your fluids with garlic sauce.....

corey ..... ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ....... when i gave u the secret to 100kw increase i didnt expect u would give it out on da net mate :angry: :angry: :angry: ahhhhhhh atleast none of u knw how mama makes it :spiteful: :spiteful: :spiteful:

mate i saved some from when we were down in syd hehe

[Suprathai]

Play nice now guys, I couldn't even be bothered anymore.

But one thing that is a bit hectic is the space in the engine bay, it gives me a headache thinking about turbo set up. But a S/C setup is not necessarily any easier. I done my research and if my situation has changed then I would of purchased the greddy SC kit and muck around with it ( I love the exchange rate at the moment). But I'm not going to be in this country anytime in the near future so thats why my sportivo had to go. I still miss my car, but life goes on...

[CORZZA]

i think it might b worth mentioning here that i can see both points of view and i think you are both going to have to agree to disagree ..... this is not the first forum ive seen the s/c vs turbo debate and something tells me it wont be the last .....

i think pete what you might need to look into is the fact that on a LHD 2zz/1zz car a turbo setup is a more enticing path to take where as on a RHD 2zz/1zz i would have to agree with you that s/c is a much more enticing path to take ..... this is simply due to real estate ..... nothing more .......

with regards to your comment about torque/power etc ..... mate with the technology in turbo's today there aint no more "turbo lag" unless u go to big for ur setup ..... mate ive got mine making & holding 9psi @ a notch under 3K probably around 2800 rpms through to redline ..... now u tell me when r u gonna be driving under 2800rpms ????? test it out next time ur out driving .... where ur @ in terms of speed in each gear @ 3K rpms and ull see what i mean by the fact that it aint an issue ......

Again with regards to this arguement each to their own ..... what would make a whole lot of people more satisfied is if people actually actioned what they spoke about ....... i would love to see more turbo'd or s/charged 1zz's or 2zz's in aus but i guess that is probably to much to ask hey when we can all sit behind our keyboards and talk from "what we've read" rather than "experienced" ........ hence y i dont comment on s/c setups ...........

Billy fair enough but im not saying that S/C is good because it gives great low down torque so that you can drive under 3000rpm but low down torque is there for acceleration stand still start, hill climbing etc. So it might help you get a head and possibly stay ahead.

i would love to see more turbo'd or s/charged 1zz's or 2zz's in aus but i guess that is probably to much to ask hey when we can all sit behind our keyboards and talk from "what we've read" rather than "experienced" ........ hence y i dont comment on s/c setups ....

not everyone has a couple 1000 just to kick start the project. then its labour,ECU's and amounts of time tuning!

You had a 2nd car to run around in and im sure the $$ saved up for the project. But im sure alot of them out there are saving up on the hush hush lol!

[xoom]

Billy fair enough but im not saying that S/C is good because it gives great low down torque so that you can drive under 3000rpm but low down torque is there for acceleration stand still start, hill climbing etc. So it might help you get a head and possibly stay ahead.

but what i think the other guys are pointing out is with the charger applications what will happen is the power/torque flatens out and will actually run out of puff ..... i can show u what this is like because thats exactly what happens @ 9psi on the turbo ..... when u hit about 5K rpms although yes the car is moving and gaining speed it does not feel like its being propelled forward with any urgency ..... like has been stated before each to their own .....

not everyone has a couple 1000 just to kick start the project. then its labour,ECU's and amounts of time tuning!

You had a 2nd car to run around in and im sure the $$ saved up for the project. But im sure alot of them out there are saving up on the hush hush lol!

mate its called the noodle diet ...... and i guess to clarify a few assumptions that have been made because this has come up a few times ..... no i dont have a 2nd car ..... i actually went to work via the train/lift with mates/got dropped off when the car was being worked on ..... i was luck the old man was working 5-10 mins down the road ...... regarding the dollars all im gonna say again is none of it was simply handed 2 me ..... im talking 16 hour days for 2.5 yrs ..... the attitude that oh yeah "he can afford it" is absolute rubbish ..... if ppl really want something bad enough they will get off their ****s and make it happen ...... its a simple thing called "hard work" ...... i love how people "assume" that all people must be getting things handed to them on a silver plater because they also cant "simply" have it ...... well reality check ..... in most cases they arent ....... nothings for free in this world and the sooner people work out that the ordinary person must work 2 pave their way in life we can get rid of this "tall poppy" syndrome !!!!!!!!! [/end rant]

[SILVABULLIT]

Billy fair enough but im not saying that S/C is good because it gives great low down torque so that you can drive under 3000rpm but low down torque is there for acceleration stand still start, hill climbing etc. So it might help you get a head and possibly stay ahead.

but what i think the other guys are pointing out is with the charger applications what will happen is the power/torque flatens out and will actually run out of puff ..... i can show u what this is like because thats exactly what happens @ 9psi on the turbo ..... when u hit about 5K rpms although yes the car is moving and gaining speed it does not feel like its being propelled forward with any urgency ..... like has been stated before each to their own .....

not everyone has a couple 1000 just to kick start the project. then its labour,ECU's and amounts of time tuning!

You had a 2nd car to run around in and im sure the $$ saved up for the project. But im sure alot of them out there are saving up on the hush hush lol!

mate its called the noodle diet ...... and i guess to clarify a few assumptions that have been made because this has come up a few times ..... no i dont have a 2nd car ..... i actually went to work via the train/lift with mates/got dropped off when the car was being worked on ..... i was luck the old man was working 5-10 mins down the road ...... regarding the dollars all im gonna say again is none of it was simply handed 2 me ..... im talking 16 hour days for 2.5 yrs ..... the attitude that oh yeah "he can afford it" is absolute rubbish ..... if ppl really want something bad enough they will get off their ****s and make it happen ...... its a simple thing called "hard work" ...... i love how people "assume" that all people must be getting things handed to them on a silver plater because they also cant "simply" have it ...... well reality check ..... in most cases they arent ....... nothings for free in this world and the sooner people work out that the ordinary person must work 2 pave their way in life we can get rid of this "tall poppy" syndrome !!!!!!!!! [/end rant]

I don't know about the "tall poppy syndrome" in this case Bill cause you ain't that tall :P I'd prolly use the analogy that would relate better to you.... Maybe something along the lines of "devouring the biggest kebab".....

[CORZZA]

mate its called the noodle diet ...... and i guess to clarify a few assumptions that have been made because this has come up a few times ..... no i dont have a 2nd car ..... i actually went to work via the train/lift with mates/got dropped off when the car was being worked on ..... i was luck the old man was working 5-10 mins down the road ...... regarding the dollars all im gonna say again is none of it was simply handed 2 me ..... im talking 16 hour days for 2.5 yrs ..... the attitude that oh yeah "he can afford it" is absolute rubbish ..... if ppl really want something bad enough they will get off their ****s and make it happen ...... its a simple thing called "hard work" ...... i love how people "assume" that all people must be getting things handed to them on a silver plater because they also cant "simply" have it ...... well reality check ..... in most cases they arent ....... nothings for free in this world and the sooner people work out that the ordinary person must work 2 pave their way in life we can get rid of this "tall poppy" syndrome !!!!!!!!! [/end rant]

Alright il give the noodle diet a go! :)

I never assumed anything so i hope the rant wasnt aimed at me? I knew the car was your old mans cos you told me. but at least you had it for a while. You lucky you can get trains & busses to work. and i did say you saved up for the project.

everything iv done to my cars in the past was out of my own back pocket. My days arent 16hours lol only 9 but 6 day weeks

[xoom]

i hope the rant wasnt aimed at me?

nah mate the rant aint aimed @ u ....... if it was going to be aimed at u i wouldnt rant on the forum .... i would drive 2 ur place ..... pick u up ..... and drop u in the dumpster ...... and im sure jase will help me out if required :P :P :P :P :P :D :D :D :D :D

[Pippy]

gosh... would this ever end... just put a plug in it all of you...

S/C has it advantages and disadvantages, and the same goes with turbo.

to leave the mechnical capabilities alone, for the sake of simplicity of the application versus price, the s/c kits on the market would be a more straight forward approach to improvement, where things are pre-fabed to fit and with minimal mucking around.

as for the turbo setup, there are way too many ways you can do this hence there's no ONE KIT comparison available.

now on to the mechnical capabilities, with the length of the runners into the snail, in the corolla, then lengths would be short as, hence the turbo would spool early as bill mentioned 2800rpm. Yes, it is true that it would not be as good on hill climbs, however, the 2zz counterpart s/c kits i.e. blitz, are not that great for hill climbs if you're comparing it to a early spooling turbo setup.

the blitz s/c kit does not reach boost till about 3000rpm. unlike the TRD 1zz kits or other s/c cars, the blitz kit has to deal with the intercooler much the same way as the turbo does, i.e. lag

its a debate that can go on and on and on.... hence if we are going to compare and have a cry about what's best, lets name specific setups and then start comparing.

frankly, to me this topic is wayyyyy off track. bring it back to what the title suggests...

where are the updates on the CES 2zz car? 'looking good' what is there to look at?? more piccys maybe? charts?

[SILVABULLIT]

I do have some video of it on the dyno at CES on my phone. Just have to get around to downloading it to my PC then putting it up on here.

[CORZZA]

i hope the rant wasnt aimed at me?

nah mate the rant aint aimed @ u ....... if it was going to be aimed at u i wouldnt rant on the forum .... i would drive 2 ur place ..... pick u up ..... and drop u in the dumpster ...... and im sure jase will help me out if required :P :P :P :P :P :D :D :D :D :D

hahaha! then id pick up that South african sausage and slap you fellas with it lol!!

Pippy thanks for your imput on this matter!

Ok im done with it now! :)

[Mintos]

but what i think the other guys are pointing out is with the charger applications what will happen is the power/torque flatens out and will actually run out of puff ..... i can show u what this is like because thats exactly what happens @ 9psi on the turbo ..... when u hit about 5K rpms although yes the car is moving and gaining speed it does not feel like its being propelled forward with any urgency ..... like has been stated before each to their own .....

Your turbo is running out of puff at 5k rpm because 9psi isn't exactly in the boost efficiency range for a 2871 and with these smaller motors you need to ram the high pressure boost in there to get the train pulling effect that higher displacement motors are able to achieve with much lower boost :P

Not to take a ***** on superchargers here, however...when talking about high performance cars (not just nippy street cars) most will agree that a well planned out turbo setup (suited to whatever the intended application of the car is, eg big turbo for drag car, smaller for hill climb, medium for track car, etc) is better for smaller motors. This is simply because the gains from a supercharger are proportional to the base torque/power of the motor.

Not saying fun can't be had with Blitz/TRD setups, but if you are talking raw performance, can't question the a snail on these cars

[Azza]

Your turbo is running out of puff at 5k rpm because 9psi isn't exactly in the boost efficiency range for a 2871 and with these smaller motors you need to ram the high pressure boost in there to get the train pulling effect that higher displacement motors are able to achieve with much lower boost :P

Not to take a ***** on superchargers here, however...when talking about high performance cars (not just nippy street cars) most will agree that a well planned out turbo setup (suited to whatever the intended application of the car is, eg big turbo for drag car, smaller for hill climb, medium for track car, etc) is better for smaller motors. This is simply because the gains from a supercharger are proportional to the base torque/power of the motor.

Not saying fun can't be had with Blitz/TRD setups, but if you are talking raw performance, can't question the a snail on these cars

I wouldn't say Bill's car runs out of puff at 5k..... I will say it ran out at 8700 though..... it just seemed like 5k cause it got there so friggin quick....

[stoopid head]

Brendan - your mission if you choose to accept it, and u will is to donwload the vid of the rolla and upload it NOW!!!!!!!

[SILVABULLIT]

I had a call from CES late yesterday with an update on the turbo Sportivo. It has had it's first service and all is well engine wise. It went back to the tuners for what you could only call stage 2. Well it's getting to be a bit of a monster power wise now!!! Running on only the low cam to 7000rpm on 14psi it pushes 177kw atw.

Lift has been disengaged and it's running on only the low end cam due to the tuners wanting to do some more with the spark side of things as when it hits lift it is almost blowing the spark out or something along those lines. They are going to be playing with plugs,coils etc etc from what I am told.

When they ran it into lift on the dyno it went spastic and started to turn the tyres on the rollers before it began to misfire a bit. Graph wise running only the low end cam it literally climbs very straight up the page dramatically and top gear acceleration from low rpm is like landing in lift N/A at about 85-90km/hr. to sya the least the owner has a very large smile on his dial but will need some new tyres for the front very shortly....

[CAP]

Nice. Being that traction would be a biatch, are they going to do something like what Bill did in tuning the ecu with two pre-sets, low-boost for everyday driving and high boost for the silly stuff ?

[sportiv]

Thanks dad.. haha and a sunny hello from London..

lets be honest hmmm i'm pretty sure i'd prefer a Golf R32 but the stivo is looking pretty spiffy

Kurt if you read this: dont kill yourself !!!!, you managed to crash the car about 30 times without any modifications on it...*** help us now