Oil Change Overkill

[campbeam]

Last oil change was done at approx. 215,200km using Shell Ultra 5W-40. It was very effective in cleaning the engine internals such that after about 800kms, the oil colour had darkened from being clear on the dipstick to a light golden colour.

When looking in the oil filler cap opening, the oil colour was much darker. I posted a picture in Tony's thread My 120.000KM Service. Last weekend, I swapped over the oil filter cartridge with a previous clean used one.

Due to a number of recent developments over the last few days, I am now going on a 3200KM road trip in the next few days so doing those last minute checks. I had previously thought about changing the oil then finally decided to do it upon return. This morning the girlfriend/cook/she who must be obeyed had a "Must Do" suggestion: Change the oil. I quickly revised my previous decision so started doing the oil change with a few tweaks. 

Usually, I drop the oil from both the oil filter housing and the engine pan, refill with diesel, idle engine for approx. 10 minutes. Then I start the oil change and fitting the oil filter cartridge. This means that any remaining diesel will mix with the new oil. For this change, I removed the oil filter cartridge when doing the engine flush with the diesel. I also added some used ATF to the diesel to improve the engine flush. Next step was to drop the diesel ATF mixture out of the oil filter housing and engine pan then refilled with some cheap new 20W-50 oil. Engine was then idled a few minutes while I emptied the drain pan again. This new oil was ever so slightly discoloured when it was drained. It has been kept to use again as a final flushing oil.

Oil change now done at 216,340KM using Shell Ultra 5W-40. Previous oil has been kept for use as a topping up oil.

Plan now is to monitor the oil colour to see how many KMs it takes before it changes from being relatively clear on the dipstick and on a flange in the valve cover. Also expecting to be doing the next oil change at 220,000KM.

 

 

[KAA]

Wow, now that is being thorough..really thorough..I have always allowed "She Who Must Be Obeyed"..to suggest and guide my endeavours.. or at least allow her to believe she is..that way I get things done and she gets to think she got it done with her input..Naturally it was me all along who got it done but happy wife happy life,

I do hope your trip is wonderful for you, enjoy that open road and air and unwind the brain

Keep Safe 

KAA

 

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, KAA said:

now that is being thorough..really thorough.

It is overkill but I wanted the engine to be as clean as possible before finally adding the new oil.

I know that there is still some sludge in the PCV baffle area and I want it gone. Initially I was annoyed that the Shell Ultra oil had got dirty so quickly until internet posts changed my thinking. A quality oil will clean and de-sludge the engine and get dirty quicker. In contrast, a lower quality oil would stay cleaner longer.

I have recently fitted an oil catch can and I have been visually monitoring the amount of exhaust vapours. Apart from the hot exhaust gases meeting the colder morning air, I was thinking that some of these vapours could possibly include diesel left from the engine flush.

I use the diesel as an engine flush a few times before discarding it. Recent thinking was to do the 1st flush with the used diesel then do a 2nd flush with new diesel. I was also thinking that new cheaper [higher viscosity] oil could then be used to flush any diesel out of the engine before adding the full synthetic engine oil. Because I did not have new diesel on hand, I used new 20W-50 engine oil which I had previously bought on special. 

Since buying my 2006 Aurion ATX about 5 years ago, it has been an ongoing battle to desludge the engine using frequent oil changes instead of pulling off the front valve cover and the engine pan. So looking forward to progressive checks of the oil and a final comparison of new oil vs previous oil [1000KM] vs this oil after 3000+KM.   

 

 

[KAA]

Yes mate you have it all sorted..Just stay safe on your trip and will look forward to the results when you check it on your return

Keep Safe

KAA

[Tony Prodigy]

On 8/8/2020 at 2:11 PM, campbeam said:

Last oil change was done at approx. 215,200km using Shell Ultra 5W-40. It was very effective in cleaning the engine internals such that after about 800kms, the oil colour had darkened from being clear on the dipstick to a light golden colour.

She's getting there Ashley. After what you had to go through to desludge her over the years, all the hard work is finally paying off.

That road trip will be the medicine it needs I think. It needs a good long run, just like the extended wash cycle on a washing machine.

I hope you guys have a safe and enjoyable trip Ash. I'm assuming your girlfriend is also coming along..

On 8/8/2020 at 7:02 PM, campbeam said:

I know that there is still some sludge in the PCV baffle area and I want it gone.

You should try removing the PCV and shooting some diesel/tranny fluid mix in via the threaded hole instead of the regular oil fill spot. This way, you get to wash that section as you fill it.

[campbeam]

2 hours ago, Tony Prodigy said:

She's getting there Ashley. After what you had to go through to desludge her over the years, all the hard work is finally paying off.

That road trip will be the medicine it needs I think. It needs a good long run, just like the extended wash cycle on a washing machine.

I hope you guys have a safe and enjoyable trip Ash. I'm assuming your girlfriend is also coming along..

You should try removing the PCV and shooting some diesel/tranny fluid mix in via the threaded hole instead of the regular oil fill spot. This way, you get to wash that section as you fill it.

Absolutely love a challenge. Always looking for improvements. With all the short distance driving that I do, the car really needs a road trip. Certainly overdue because I missed out in 2019. Recent highway run resulted in the car blowing smoke on startup, so very frustrating and also motivating. It is just an ongoing challenge so getting there finally. 

Girlfriend is coming along for company and to make sure that I stay out of trouble. LOL 

We must have similar thinking because I have already checked that 3/8" oil hose will fit into the PCV threaded hole. I will have to remember it for next oil change and pour in the diesel/ATF via there. Forgot all about it this time. 

I had forgotten that a few cans of Liqui Moly Friction Reducer were on the back seat, so yesterday I topped up the new oil with a can.  https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/liqui-moly-liqui-moly-mos2-friction-reducer-engine-treatment-300ml/156706.html  Another addition to this overkill oil change.  

 

 

 

 

[Tony Prodigy]

3 hours ago, campbeam said:

We must have similar thinking because I have already checked that 3/8" oil hose will fit into the PCV threaded hole. I will have to remember it for next oil change and pour in the diesel/ATF via there. Forgot all about it this time. 

[ZZT86]

Ash so much mucking around, how long has it been when you first started flushing & have you kept a diary of the cost ?

I envy you for being able to do 3K kms 😕 Have fun in sunny, warm QLD.

[campbeam]

9 hours ago, ZZT86 said:

Ash so much mucking around, how long has it been when you first started flushing & have you kept a diary of the cost ?

I envy you for being able to do 3K kms 😕 Have fun in sunny, warm QLD.

Yes, lots of time-wasting but I have lots of me time especially on the weekends. I have been flushing this engine since October 2015.  I do keep a car maintenance spreadsheet. As for cost, estimate 20 oil changes. Diesel is used 2 or 3 times for flushing then replaced.

In October 2015, I made a deliberate decision to use an short oil change interval approach rather than pull apart the engine to de-sludge it particularly the baffle area in the front valve cover. It has certainly taken a lot longer than the 12 months that I was expecting.

A good road trip will do wonders to help get rid of the oil sludge that is still in the baffle area of the valve cover.

If not, this may be the final hurrah before taking off the valve cover and looking at trying to modify the baffles.

Hence my reasons for doing this extreme oil change. 

Actually, I would much rather be at work but was told to reduce my leave balance. So now doing an impromptu road trip Brisbane to Cairns [with the girlfriend] which is a better option than alone at home. What I really want is a road trip to NSW for family reasons so like everyone else, I will be waiting for all these interstate restrictions to get fully lifted. 

 

[ZZT86]

The alternative would be to strip the motor top & bottom, washing yada yada . . .

[campbeam]

Now got an annoying development. I have topped up the engine oil with about 2 litres of oil today. Oil level was just above the low level mark on the dipstick when I checked first thing this morning.

I was not anticipating this much oil usage and only brought along 750ml of the Shell Ultra 5W-40. Fortunately Supercheap Innisfail is located on the main highway so detoured and bought 4 litres of Shell Helix 10W-40.

I am thinking that the full synthetic oil has thoroughly cleaned the piston rings and in combination with the Nulon additive is now getting past the piston rings. Surprisingly, the engine has not smoked since the first day when I accelerated away from a rest area.

Checked the exhaust this morning and it was slightly black indicating oil is being burnt.

Soon find out tomorrow with a half-day trip whether the slightly higher oil viscosity is correcting this issue.

[Novicebutnice]

3 hours ago, campbeam said:

Now got an annoying development. I have topped up the engine oil with about 2 litres of oil today. Oil level was just above the low level mark on the dipstick when I checked first thing this morning.

I was not anticipating this much oil usage and only brought along 750ml of the Shell Ultra 5W-40. Fortunately Supercheap Innisfail is located on the main highway so detoured and bought 4 litres of Shell Helix 10W-40.

I am thinking that the full synthetic oil has thoroughly cleaned the piston rings and in combination with the Nulon additive is now getting past the piston rings. Surprisingly, the engine has not smoked since the first day when I accelerated away from a rest area.

Checked the exhaust this morning and it was slightly black indicating oil is being burnt.

Soon find out tomorrow with a half-day trip whether the slightly higher oil viscosity is correcting this issue.

I could be mistaken because I'm not sure what the exhaust colour would be with a oil catch can fitted,

From doctor google:

 

Black exhaust smoke
Diagnosis: Not normal

Black exhaust smoke can appear when the vehicle is burning too much fuel. This could be caused by a clogged air filter, malfunctioning fuel injection system, a blocked manifold, or a variety of other issues. A clogged air filter won’t hurt your gas mileage thanks to today’s automotive technology, says Consumer Reports, but you’ll pay for it with poor performance. Have your vehicle checked out by a technician to see why your vehicle is burning more fuel than usual.


Blue indicates that you are burning oil, black is when the engine is running rich.

Let us know how you go :-)

 

 

 

[Tony Prodigy]

11 hours ago, campbeam said:

Now got an annoying development. I have topped up the engine oil with about 2 litres of oil today. Oil level was just above the low level mark on the dipstick when I checked first thing this morning.

Wow, that's a lot of oil Ashley. If it's not blowing smoke, where's it going ? How many kays did it take to consume that much ?

[campbeam]

Started the engine this morning and noticeable exhaust smoke.

Unscrewed PCV valve from the valve cover so it is now just sitting in the opening.

We did a quick drive up the coast to Port Douglas. Girlfriend had a swim at 4 Mile beach while I just washed mt feet. LOL

So after 2hours of driving, I have checked the oil level and all is OK. Engine oil is remarkably clean [for my engine] even allowing for the top up that has been happening. 

Certainly was not expecting that to be happening this trip especially after fitting the oil catch can. Will post more info in that thread of my experience/learnings.

[Tony Prodigy]

14 minutes ago, campbeam said:

Started the engine this morning and noticeable exhaust smoke.

Unscrewed PCV valve from the valve cover so it is now just sitting in the opening.

We did a quick drive up the coast to Port Douglas. Girlfriend had a swim at 4 Mile beach while I just washed mt feet. LOL

So after 2hours of driving, I have checked the oil level and all is OK. Engine oil is remarkably clean [for my engine] even allowing for the top up that has been happening. 

Certainly was not expecting that to be happening this trip especially after fitting the oil catch can. Will post more info in that thread of my experience/learnings.

Glad to see everything is going well Ash. We have some amazing coastline and good to see your girlfriend is soaking it up.

I'm guessing you meant "no" noticeable smoke. I suspect the oil treatment may have contributed to the leakage or bypass of the rings.

Look forward to your update.

Have a great day and stay safe 

[campbeam]

I did mean that there was a cloud of exhaust smoke upon startup. Oil vapor is still getting sucked up into the intake despite the oil catch can.

When I get back home, front bank valve cover is going to be removed to check/clean and modify/adjust the baffles in the valve cover. I will then be able to see how clean the valve train and camshafts etc. are after 5 years of short oil change intervals.

[Tony Prodigy]

8 minutes ago, campbeam said:

I did mean that there was a cloud of exhaust smoke upon startup

Ok, cool. I figured it may have been a typo. 

8 minutes ago, campbeam said:

When I get back home, front bank valve cover is going to be removed to check/clean and modify/adjust the baffles in the valve cover.

Is It possible your valve guides could be leaky ? Smoke on start up can be just that if the catch can is doing its job.For it to have used two litres of oil is very strange. Maybe that additive is doing some strange witchcraft in there..

[campbeam]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Ok, cool. I figured it may have been a typo. 

Is It possible your valve guides could be leaky ? Smoke on start up can be just that if the catch can is doing its job.For it to have used two litres of oil is very strange. Maybe that additive is doing some strange witchcraft in there..

Definitely not the valve guides. White smoke on startup for the Aurions is mainly due to oil sludge in the baffles of the valve cover so that oil does not drain quickly so oil vapor is sucked up via the PCV valve. Oil vapor then pools in the intake e.g. overnight so the engine then smokes on startup.

Mechanics that do not know the 2GR-FE engine assume that it is the valve guides or the engine rings need to be replaced.

Proven test is to "disconnect" or isolate the PCV valve from the valve cover. If you were to do this and the engine was still smoking on startup after a day or so, then you would need to be doing some engine tests e.g. compression test to identify the cause.

[Novicebutnice]

21 hours ago, campbeam said:

Definitely not the valve guides. White smoke on startup for the Aurions is mainly due to oil sludge in the baffles of the valve cover so that oil does not drain quickly so oil vapor is sucked up via the PCV valve. Oil vapor then pools in the intake e.g. overnight so the engine then smokes on startup.

Mechanics that do not know the 2GR-FE engine assume that it is the valve guides or the engine rings need to be replaced.

Proven test is to "disconnect" or isolate the PCV valve from the valve cover. If you were to do this and the engine was still smoking on startup after a day or so, then you would need to be doing some engine tests e.g. compression test to identify the cause.

As odd as this sounds, I would recommend using a can of Subaru upper engine cleaner and an oil change when you get back.

It is possible that either your oil flush, or the Nulon (correction Liqui Moly) oil additive (or perhaps that combination) has caused an issue in the cylinders.

I base this on 2 experiences I had as an apprentice mechanic where I had used Fortron "Engine flush" before an oil change

And when the foreman road tested the cars after the oil change they blew smoke,

so we used the upper engine cleaner and hey presto it fixed the issue (he was less than impressed the second time around... my bad...).

Something about the product causing the piston rings to not seal properly??

Hopefully you find the issue and it is a quick and preferably cheap fix :-)

Edited August 17, 2020 by Novicebutnice

[campbeam]

4 minutes ago, Novicebutnice said:

I would recommend using a can of Subaru upper engine cleaner and an oil change when you get back.

Thank you for the recommendation.

Just checked the oil level now and all is ok after doing about 140kms driving today.

Trip back home from Cairns to Brisbane should really confirm what needs to be done.

Ongoing checks will be engine startup in the morning as to whether there is exhaust smoke and regular checks of the oil level.

Probably best to give the PCV valve and vacuum hose a clean before leaving tomorrow morning.

[ZZT86]

Ash, I just realised you used LiquiMoly & I reckon it has screwed you. That stuff will make the cylinders so slippy that the end result will be excess oil consumption through the rings & perhaps increased blow-by. I tried the same thing on my old 7thgen Celica about 8 years ago & that's exactly what I got. It was dumb of me for trying it, the engine was fine never used a drop & after it started using about 250ml of oil every 5K kms or so. The harder you drive it the more it will use.

I also think sludge/PCV system is still your main concern which is why I suggested pulling the front cam cover off at least to inspect the situation at hand. I know it's a pita cos it's a fwd V6 to do the whole job but it might be the only way. At least the front cover will give you an idea of just how bad.

About a year ago me & a mate went to Philip Island for a track day - just happy laps of the circuit for the whole day. We were both out on the first session for the morning, very cool day, after 20 min my Hachi ran perfectly, hardly a drop of oil used, his is a brand new VF seriesII SS Redline & there was oil EVERYWHERE ! After discussing with other SS owners it was put down to massive blow-by forcing oil to the intake completely soaking the air filter spraying oil all over the engine bay. There was never any smoke from his exhaust on track as I followed & passed him. Most SS owners there had catch-cans.

ps: the Subaru UEC may be potent enough to wash & help scrub the cylinders/rings of that stuff if you use enough of it, assuming you don't have a sludge problem.

Edited August 16, 2020 by ZZT86

[campbeam]

Latest update is that all is good; No more oil usage and no exhaust smoking on startup and even under foot to the floor acceleration. I did give the PCV valve a thorough clean. It was possibly sticking open. Interim workaround was isolating the PCV valve from the valve cover.

[Tony Prodigy]

1 hour ago, campbeam said:

Latest update is that all is good; No more oil usage and no exhaust smoking on startup and even under foot to the floor acceleration. I did give the PCV valve a thorough clean. It was possibly sticking open. Interim workaround was isolating the PCV valve from the valve cover.

Good news Ash. It's possible the PCV did get stuck. 

When you remove the valve cover be sure to post up some pics so we can see the innards.

Stay safe and enjoy your time away. 

[KAA]

Great News Ash, glad it has been sorted and you can now relax and enjoy the trip away..

Keep Safe

KAA

[campbeam]

Following picture show the oil on the dipstick after adding the Nulon additive. 

 

This picture show the oil on the dipstick after a days travel from Brisbane to Rockhampton. All looking good so far. I think that I did top up the oil a little bit, about 200ml. 

 

This picture shows the oil level on the dipstick after next days travel from Rockhampton to Townsville. Not looking good. Added remaining oil approx. 550 ml. Thinking at the time that I would need to buy 1 litre of oil [minimum] and kicking myself for not bringing more oil. 

 As I previously mentioned, I bought 5 litres of oil from SuperCheap Auto Innisfail so able to top up to the full oil level.

No picture for the oil level when we arrived in Cairns but it was reasonably OK. 

Just demonstrates the importance of doing an under the hood every day when travelling long distances. Oil is cheaper than a seized engine.