Rattle on engine start

[trentmeyer23]

It will likely be the VVT-i assembly located in the end of the intake camshafts. We had it rather bad, so I moved to a thicker grade oil(still within specs) and haven't had any issues or rattles since. Does it go away a few seconds after starting?

[07Prodigy]

Yeah it does go away, just has me concerned it will do damage.

And of corse Toyota not notice it when the get it at its next service because it will be warm.

In regards to my battery, it's only just out of warranty but it does take slightly longer to start then with a new battery. When I say slightly I mean like half a second.

[william777]

I had the same problem. What I did was switch on the ignition for say 5 seconds before I start to crank it, the sound just disappeared even in cold morning starts. I cannot offer an explanation for this.

[07Prodigy]

Oh so kind of like waiting for glow plugs to warm up on a diesel.

[matt36415]

2007, 198,000km. Mine does the rattle. I read on another forum that if you give the starter a small bump, not enough to start it though and then start it, the noise will be gone. It seems to work

[07Prodigy]

Oh cool, mines very close to yours Matt36415, 2007, 194,000km.

I don't think it should be there though, I have noticed mine doing it more frequently as it gets colder, and when I say colder, I mean 0-12 degrees Celsius/centigrade (is there a difference?)

Warmer days not so much but still there.

Is it definitely something to do with the VVTi?

[07Prodigy]

Oh crap, sorry guys thought this was the Aurion thread.

[matt36415]

Do a search on Toyota Nation in the camry thread, their V6 camry is the same drivetrain as the Aurion. There is lots about this issue there.

[matt36415]

Old thread.... I posted a while ago at 194000km. Car is now at 225000km and the rattle has been gone for at least a year. Not once, even at minus 5C morning start. 

I think the car had a poor record of oil changes, probably cheap oil too. I have used fully synthetic 5w 30 or 40 for the last 30000km approx changing at about 7500km or so. I also add Liqui Moly friction reducing MOS2 in each change, half a can. Although there may be some mechanical issue with vvt causing the noise, my conclusion is that its caused by a bit of sludge or at least the start of it. Thats the only reason I can see why mine has ‘fixed’ its self

[KAA]

Hi Matt, Seem's that it has been sorted for you..good too hear it..Good maintaince is always the best approach to most things..keep it looked after and it will look after you

Keep Well and safe

KAA

[Tony Prodigy]

On 9/28/2017 at 3:37 PM, KAA said:

Hi Matt, Seem's that it has been sorted for you..good too hear it..Good maintaince is always the best approach to most things..keep it looked after and it will look after you

Keep Well and safe

KAA

Well said !

[Vijith555]

Hi guys just had a read through all the comments and know this is an old topic but thought I add my case in too. 

Used to drive a Sportivo ZR6 2009 but now drive a RX 350 same year. I believe they share the same engines. 

Since the last few months I have started to get the rattle on startup but never on a cold start. Only happens if you drive somewhere, park car and try to start within 1-2hrs. The car has always been serviced with correct spec oil. Currently running full synthethic Penrite 5w40. Now a month ago i switched to BP ultimate fuel and after a few tanks the noise disappeared away for a good month. So i was really happy that it got sorted and maybe it was sludge or dirt build maybe. But since the last week the problem is back again unfortunately. So I am really not sure now if it is dirt that is casing this because before this i used to use 95 grade fuel and occasionaly E10 which I believe might have added to the problem my bad. 

After reading through comments I saw one of you guys said changing the battery to a newer one helped. My last service mechanic actually mentioned he thinks the battery on my car is still the same one that got shipped from Japan and looks like never been replaced. I find it hard to believe but i know its quite old now and some occasions take little longer to start then how it was 2.5 years ago. I only had this car for 3 years now and it is at 130K. 

[campbeam]

3 hours ago, Vijith555 said:

quite old now and some occasions take little longer to start then how it was 2.5 years ago.

Good indication that the battery may not last much longer although I have read some internet posts of car batteries lasting up to 10 years.

I have bought a multi-stage battery charger to help rejuvenate batteries. I also have bought the larger size Century Battery 75D23L MF instead of the 55D23L MF for my Aurion but have not  noticed any difference for engine starting between 620 CCA and 540 CCA.

[Vijith555]

Changing the battery to a new one didnt really help in my case. 

I have also noticed if i keep the start switch at ON position for about 8 seconds before starting the noise does not come but that is just coincidence. 

Now i did find this article online that actually mentions our problem and this guy recommends using thinner oil so the oil gets to cam gears through the 'vanes' sooner and doesn't cause the 1-2 second rattle. I currently use Penrite 5w40 and I am now thinking of using a thinner oil. But how thin can i go for this sort of engine? What do you guys recommend I try?

You DIY Auto

 

 

 

 

Thick oil and the VVT-i startup tick

 

If you own a late model Toyota you may have noticed a 1-2 second ticking noise at startup. While there could be other mechanical problems, most of the time the culprit is a stuck/locked VVT-i controller. What can I do to resolve this? In some cases its an actual controller failure. But for most its oil selection. 

Its called Variable Valve Timing because its always running. From the second the engine starts, VVT is attempting to adjust to conditions. When it can't, gets stuck, it will tick for 1-2 seconds. Unlike Honda's VTEC that uses two sets of cam shaft profiles – one for low and mid range rpm and another for high rpm operation, VVT camshaft timing is varied using oil pressure according to engine revolutions, throttle position, engine coolant temperature and intake air volume.

VVT operation depends on hydraulic oil pressure that arrives through a long winding path of tiny oil passages. So tiny they are known as "vanes". Its critical the system stays clean. Its critical the system maintains proper oil flow and pressure as fast as possible to prevent that annoying startup tick.

Proper lubrication comes from a combination of oil pressure, flow, and film strength between moving parts. Oil pressure by itself is no indication of proper engine lubrication. Oil pressure is managed by the oil pump and relief valve. Thick oil will have higher pressure because there is more resistance to flow. Too high and it will flow out the oil pump relief valve back to the sump, lubricating nothing including the VVT system.

As stated above, thick oil will have higher pressure because there is more resistance to flow. Add that to the tiny "vanes" of the VVT system and you have a oil flow lag as compared to the rest of the engine. By as much as 1-2 seconds. No coincidence that's the duration of the noise.

Modern thin oils have better flow, better viscosity modifiers to manage film strength. That means better lubrication and cooling, keeping pressure within spec. Tthin as possible is a good thing, especially for the VVT-i system.. "Thin as possible" meaning some older engines have mechanical issues like wear/higher tolerances, valve seals, rings, etc. causing oil consumption that may prevent its use.

[trentmeyer23]

@campbeam has had very good outcomes with continued oil flushes.

[AurionX2]

Vijitha, on my Aurions I'm using 5w30 full syn. One, 2008 ~145000k kms is on Valvoline Synpower, the other one, 2013 ~46000k kms on Nulon Long Life, on both changed every 7.5-8k kms. I really can't see any reason NOT to go full synthetic when I can buy them on sale for under 30AUD for a 5 or 6 litre bottle.

But bear in mind I haven't had the VVT rattle at start-up yet, so can't tell whether going for different viscosity will help in your case, but you can try. Just curious, ave you ever removed the rocker cover or the oil sump to see whether there's any significant sludge inside? If it looks gummed up you may want to get rid of some of that dirt. Trying several oil flushes may help, but without knowing the car's detailed service history and the current engine condition you're just shooting in the dark here.

[Redmondo]

I have aurion presara 07 and my car has done 233000 kms. I have vvti noise when motor warm. I use nulon 10w40. Was told by toyota that it would not damage anything unless it got real bad all the time

[campbeam]

4 hours ago, Redmondo said:

I have vvti noise when motor warm. I use nulon 10w40.

There is lots of information in the prior posts for this thread. Solutions vary so it can be quite vehicle specific.

Changing oil viscosity may help or even desludging your engine to improve oil pressure.

In my case, I drive lots of short distances [15-20 minutes] so my engine is more prone to oil sludge than someone else who is driving longer distances for 30+minutes. Therefore, my oil change interval is more frequent. I have also changed over to full synthetic oil with SN or GF-5 oil specification for enhanced oil sludge protection.

Best to do your own further research then work out a few options to try.

[matt36415]

I posted above... now at 244,000km and the noise very rarely happens but when only when the oil is getting towards being replaced. This makes me think that although the vvti pin may have some issue, it is related to oil quality and possibly pressure. I think pressure could play a role as some years ago I had an SSS Pulsar and I added an oil pressure gauge and the pressure (when warm) was fairly consistent at a given rev point until about 5000km or so, then it would drop a few psi and stay lower until I replaced it. This phenomenon may play a role here.

[ZZT86]

Vijith555 's post May 3 2018 makes plenty of sense, explaining that the VVTi controller & locking pin vitally depend on correct oil pressure & that oil viscosity is crucial for this system to work properly, even worse if there's oil sludge.

I'm currently looking to purchase a 50 series Aurion only 3 years old with 30K kms, services by the book with Toyota which states the use of 10W30 on first 3 services & last one done a few months ago using 5W/30 weight oil. The other day on cold start the VVTi rattle occurred for 1-2 second's 2 seconds after start/running. What I also noticed on RO Service receipts was that the 10W30 was "VVTi specific - Genuine Toyota Oil" & the 5W30 to be generic type oil !

Either this is one helluva picky system that favours one oil over another or the controller is still a reliability issue on these cars.

PS: More Info: I ended up getting that Aurion, has never made rattle noise on start up, have changed to Nulon 5W30 F/Synth & it still works faultlessly. Peeping through the oil filler cap I can see the engine is, as you'd expect, like new. So the lighter grade oil is no different to the heavier grade on these 50 series cars for noise.

Edited June 15, 2020 by ZZT86
wrong info / updated info

[Scott Leslie]

My 2007 Aurion Sportivo has had the same issue for a while now. And a week ago, something went wrong at start up, and now the engine is idling with a constant kind of popping noise, and smells strongly of pure fuel from the exhaust. I suspect if it's the VVTi controller, it has now failed on mine. So, don't let anyone tell you, it doesn't matter. Because it obviously does.

[campbeam]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:34 AM, Scott Leslie said:

My 2007 Aurion Sportivo has had the same issue for a while now. And a week ago, something went wrong at start up, and now the engine is idling with a constant kind of popping noise, and smells strongly of pure fuel from the exhaust. I suspect if it's the VVTi controller, it has now failed on mine. So, don't let anyone tell you, it doesn't matter. Because it obviously does.

Certainly interested in updates to confirm that it is the VVTi controller only or additional issues e.g. timing chain, tensioner etc plus the end solution,

[Tony Prodigy]

On 3/27/2011 at 11:32 PM, Hunter41k said:

I have 2010 model Aurion. I have noise at start up. Took car to the dealer and they found that front engine mount is malfunctioning. It is vacuum operated and it is loosing pressure inside the mount. My car will be fix this week.

Really ? Vacuum operated engine mounts ? 

How would you know if it is defective ?

[Tony Prodigy]

On 7/21/2014 at 5:57 PM, Brendo88 said:

Toyota Stealership diagnosed it as faulty VVTI mechanism, and wanted around 8k for repairs ( with toyota paying some of the bill as a "good will" gesture).

Wow ! Now that's totally ludicrous. Looks like a dealership living up to the "stealership" reputation. The "goodwill" part is them having you over a barrel with interest.

[Tony Prodigy]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:34 AM, Scott Leslie said:

My 2007 Aurion Sportivo has had the same issue for a while now. And a week ago, something went wrong at start up, and now the engine is idling with a constant kind of popping noise, and smells strongly of pure fuel from the exhaust. I suspect if it's the VVTi controller, it has now failed on mine. So, don't let anyone tell you, it doesn't matter. Because it obviously does.

I suspect you are correct. Looks like it's stuck in the advance position indicating the controller isn't functioning. Is it possible it may be sludged up ?

Would be interesting to hear the outcome. I think there would be several factors at play with this issue.

I must say, I've never had this issue or any of the symptoms with my car and am surprised that several of you have. I wonder if the problem was exacerbated by the use of incorrect oil and weight by the dealerships in the early stages of the car's history. 

10 hours ago, campbeam said:

Certainly interested in updates to confirm that it is the VVTi controller only or additional issues e.g. timing chain, tensioner etc plus the end solution,

Yep. Me too.

Did you see the post of the guy with the taxi who's car had like 430, 000 kays on the clock ! Wow.