Avalon Re-Born ?

[campbeam]

19 hours ago, Novicebutnice said:

Which kind of begs the question, thinner fuel to save on fuel like 0W20 or 5W20

Or slightly thicker oil for what should be better protection, heat dissipation, cleansing (?) etc like 5W30, 5W40 etc

Me personally I go the slightly thicker oil (not exceeding the manufacturers recommendations)

The age old saying was that as a car gets older and starts to blow smoke the "fix" was just to put in thicker engine oil, but nowadays with the size of the oil gallery holes, and in general tighter tolerances in engines means that you can't really do that.

The thinner oils have been developed for the very latest generations of modern engines which have much tighter tolerances. Oil manufacturers do refer the consumer to the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations as per the owner's manual. When you look at a Lube Guide by Penrite, Nulon, Castrol etc, they usually offer 3 recommendations for your consideration.

My current personal preferred selection based upon my specific vehicle and my specific regular driving conditions is 5W30. However, I will change to 5W40 or 10W40 for an interstate driving trip where the outside temperature is 35C and the air-conditioning is at maximum.

Certainly more extreme driving conditions so I want to up the engine anti-wear protection.

I located these YouTube videos which I thought were relevant to the oil posts on this thread.

Are owners using the correct oil for their application?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASAdkJydBFU

What does the colour of engine oil tell about the quality and performance of engine oil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAcCK01XIqM

This video is more about the additive package and how it can affect the colour of new oil.

Why motor oil changes color and how to tell what it means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCgL5_54Gy8

This video explains/demonstrates that a good quality oil is going to change colour i.e. getting darker because it is cleaning the engine internals.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by campbeam
Add video links

[TommyM]

On 7/27/2020 at 4:12 PM, Novicebutnice said:

When I bought my RZ Camry it came with an offer of fixed price servicing of $140 for the first 3-4 years....

But I still supply my own oil..... 

Because I too understand the affliction 

But then again the dealership reckons that a Semi-Synthetic Castrol oil lasts 15,000km / 9 months.....

I humbly STRONGLY disagree....

I would never leave oil in my car for longer than 8000km, they stretch out intervals for "conserving resources", oil is cheap, a new engine isn't. I still do my oil changes every 7500km or 7 months, whatever comes first.

Castrol oil is garbage, has been for years 🤣

[TommyM]

On 7/27/2020 at 4:50 PM, Novicebutnice said:

Even with using full Synthetic I would still like to change the oil more often than the 15,000 km 9 months, but my local dealership doesn't like taking money off me 

To me 15,000 km / 9 months is an extended oil drain 

I used to be a car mechanic at a dealership (not Toyota), and so as soon as they said "semi-synthetic" and the brand I was like... oh hell no!

It's your car, service it when YOU want, don't let dealerships bully you. I do one service at a family mechanic for the past 20+ years & one at a dealership i know/trust. They've always been fantastic, i supply my own fluids but. 

Considering my Avalon has impeccable Toyota service history, i wana keep it at Toyota partially. 

Full synthetic all the way 😁

[TommyM]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:19 AM, Tony Prodigy said:

Wow. That is really terrible advice, especially after everything we NOW know about the potential for sludging. Also makes a good argument for a catch can.

Fixed price servicing is also code for: We will service your car the cheapest possible way with inferior oil. I also doubt they let it drain thoroughly either.

I feel for those who can't perform their own maintenance and hope they have an honest mechanic. For me, I will try and do everything myself. I can take my time and do it the right way and use the proper fluids.

Good for you Stephen. They didn't bet on you coming at them with that. They assume that we're all mugs at the end of the day. Most people won't know the difference.

That's hilarious Tommy 🤣 They want the champagne lifestyle on a beer budget lol... Perhaps they should buy a car that fits their means ??

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Yeah basically every soccer mum car owner, cheapest possible maintenance. When realistically they're getting ripped off hardcore buying a crossover/SUV. When a Camry fully equipped has a price tag 20k cheaper lol

Roughly anyway. Same 3.5L V6, 8sp auto, etc

[Tony Prodigy]

12 minutes ago, TommyM said:

When a Camry fully equipped has a price tag 20k cheaper lol

Roughly anyway. Same 3.5L V6, 8sp auto, etc

That would be my next car if I decide to upgrade from the Aurion. I'd get a fully equipped top of the range Camry V6.

NIIIIIICE !!

[TommyM]

9 minutes ago, Tony Prodigy said:

That would be my next car if I decide to upgrade from the Aurion. I'd get a fully equipped top of the range Camry V6.

NIIIIIICE !!

Well a 2020 Camry SL V6 starts at around 45k before options, fees, etc (made to order not a demo)

 

And a 2020 Kluger Grande starts at around 68k before options, fees, etc (made to order, not a demo)

 

Considering the common powertrain, almost 70k for a jacked up minivan platform ?, get real 🤣🤣🤣🤣 (figuratively speaking)

Edited July 31, 2020 by TommyM

[Tony Prodigy]

2 minutes ago, TommyM said:

Considering the common powertrain, almost 70k for a jacked up minivan platform ?, get real 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I dare say more expensive to run, insure and register too.. I don't need a big heavy lug. It's just 3 of us in my family and a sedan is perfect. Very comfortable, safe and roomy enough. Easy to park and wash. You'll need a step ladder to wash an SUV. 

[campbeam]

As my next project car, I would not mind a 2020 Camry SL V6 that had a cheapest possible maintenance car owner, It would have to be at a really low giveaway price because the engine would be so sludged up, need new tyres, battery etc. Something to consider in about 5 years when looking at eBay and Gumtree etc. 

[TommyM]

39 minutes ago, campbeam said:

As my next project car, I would not mind a 2020 Camry SL V6 that had a cheapest possible maintenance car owner, It would have to be at a really low giveaway price because the engine would be so sludged up, need new tyres, battery etc. Something to consider in about 5 years when looking at eBay and Gumtree etc. 

Buy new, don't make the mistake i see far to often. Brand new/near new SUV's with basically bald rubber yet they have children in the back ?, pathetic.

I wouldn't say sludged up, but definitely that premature brown staining on the top end, etc

[Tony Prodigy]

1 hour ago, TommyM said:

Brand new/near new SUV's with basically bald rubber yet they have children in the back ?, pathetic.

Well Said mate 

[TommyM]

1 hour ago, Tony Prodigy said:

Well Said mate 

I spend good money on good rubber, the continentals on my Avalon at the moment are great. Low noise, good grip, etc

They're NOT one of them rubbish "economy aiding" tyres, they're more a sportier better grip focused tyre. No excuse why soccer dads/mums can't afford new tyres, they forked out 40k+ on an SUV. My car is at risk due to their stupidity. One reason we pay so much for insurance 🤣🤣🤣

[campbeam]

22 minutes ago, TommyM said:

I spend good money on good rubber, the continentals on my Avalon at the moment are great. Low noise, good grip, etc

They're NOT one of them rubbish "economy aiding" tyres, they're more a sportier better grip focused tyre. No excuse why soccer dads/mums can't afford new tyres, they forked out 40k+ on an SUV. My car is at risk due to their stupidity. One reason we pay so much for insurance 🤣🤣🤣

Precisely why you buy quality tyres, brake pads etc. and drive defensively.

You have to learn to identify the stupid idiots' behaviours and give them a wide berth. 

[TommyM]

4 hours ago, campbeam said:

Precisely why you buy quality tyres, brake pads etc. and drive defensively.

You have to learn to identify the stupid idiots' behaviours and give them a wide berth. 

A wide berth ?, more like a titanic girth 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Exactly why i'm always extra cautious of dickheads. Even the slow idiots that do 60 in an 80k zone. I'm a confident & safe driver even though sometimes i can be a lead foot, you're allowed to accelerate however up to the speed limit 🤣

[ZZT86]

@TommyM  - mate all this talk about your Avalon & no pics - cough up, we want to see this glorious car of yours 😉 Did see the brochure, very nice interior/dash layout that reminds me of olden day Supras. The old Toyota’s had nicer softer leather that’s for sure. Nowadays you gotta fork out big $$ for Toyota/Lexus leather that soft.

The new Avalon in the US is a very smart & beautiful looking car, the chick standing next to it is pretty hot also. The Avalon has cleaner/less complicated sheetmetal & a sharp clean front end design whereas they’ve overdone it with the current Camry, full of odd shapes & creases going in every which direction, imo.

Tom, I’m curious to know what sort of driving you do in your Avalon & how often ? I know the 1MZ-FE well as it was fitted to my old MCV20R Azura. Yes they can get warm but still no cause for alarm especially if its driven properly & within the “normal driving” guidelines. The OCI in those engines is every 15K km. The 7.5K km interval is for “severe operating conditions” & so there’s no requirement to have your car serviced that often.

Now my understanding is that if you constantly do or only drive short distances @ slow speeds with lots of stop/start/idle time & the engine/oil never gets a chance to get to normal hot operating temps for at least 10-15min then your OCI should be 7.5K km minimum.

If you’re like me & let the engine warm up carefully when cold & gives it 15 minutes for the oil to get to normal hot temps then does plenty easy fwy driving for at least another 15 minutes then your OCI should be 15K km.

The leading cause of sludge buildup is due to owner/driver behaviour, attitude & neglect as well as poor/lack of the appropriate maintenance. If you mostly use your car normally with good drive times & distance covered allowing the engine & oil to get normally hot then there’s no reason why the oil won’t last 15K km, especially if it’s a Full Synthetic. Under these normal driving conditions you will find about a 50% depletion of the oils TBN levels by the time 15K km is up & is therefore capable for going even further if desired.

A 5W30 grade oil is just fine for these engines (even the 2GR) as it was designed for, especially in arctic Melbourne. Full Synthetic is obviously the best for its ability to withstand the extremes & it’s ability to “stay in grade”. The lighter grade will give you higher oil pressures, better heat dissipation, protection, performance & fuel economy. The heavier grade will do the opposite. If your engine is partially worn & using some oil &/or you live in a much warmer climate, ie: Brisbane or drive your car harshly then yeah the higher grade will suit.

Having said all that & because I’m a fusspot just like a lot of you guys & I do my own maintenance, I want the engine in my cars to last a very long time which is why I do 7.5K km OCI using a quality Full Synthetic oil. My HachiRoku for example has been using the best 0W20 since early 2013 (TGMO) as it was designed for & yes it is like water. And after many of me own UOA tests have proved it’s a ripper oil, very high performance, stays in grade, recovers quickly, even with the sole use of E85. Oil technology has never been better with great thanks to the environment.

ps: where did you see that the Kluger is designed to use dino 20W50 ? As far as I can tell it’s 5W30, it is a 2GR after all.

Edited July 31, 2020 by ZZT86

[Novicebutnice]

On 7/31/2020 at 5:03 PM, TommyM said:

I spend good money on good rubber, the continentals on my Avalon at the moment are great. Low noise, good grip, etc

They're NOT one of them rubbish "economy aiding" tyres, they're more a sportier better grip focused tyre. No excuse why soccer dads/mums can't afford new tyres, they forked out 40k+ on an SUV. My car is at risk due to their stupidity. One reason we pay so much for insurance 🤣🤣🤣

That's probably the number one thing that makes me angry about some car owners.

They can't seem to comprehend that the black round things connect their car to the road, but then again I have heard that some of the tyre shops share an equal or most of the blame.

They seem to be so eager to make a profit that I have heard of instances where they have suggested a tyre that clearly they have a better mark up on, irrespective of how bad the tyre is.

or so eager for a sale no matter what that they suggest some cheap nasty thing just to make the sale.

I honestly think that all tyres need to be regularly randomly (not supplied by the manufacturers) tested to ensure that they are safe to be sold, and of course publish the results on an easy to access website 

[campbeam]

25 minutes ago, Novicebutnice said:

I have heard of instances where they have suggested a tyre that clearly they have a better mark up on, irrespective of how bad the tyre is.

or so eager for a sale no matter what that they suggest some cheap nasty thing just to make the sale.

It takes time and effort to be an informed buyer and to carefully select a reputable seller. I am regularly checking tyre reviews to find the best touring tyre for my particular vehicle. I do maintain a shortlist of preferred tyres. I have been going to the same Bob Jane T-Mart for many years. When I am there for a wheel alignment, I ask a "loaded" question of what tyres they would recommend for my Aurion. It certainly helps because the counter staff member also drives an Aurion and speaks from experience. 

I have also accumulated enough bad experiences to now ignore or blunten the "hip pocket nerve" such that I will only consider quality brand name tyres that meet my performance requirements. 

[KAA]

Virtually the same reply as Ash, I regularly read up on latest tyre deals and crosscheck reviews about ones i feel are suitable for my car and driving style and preferences, I don;t mid paying a small amount more for the better quality brands having had them on my cars for years..It always pays to check out a few dealers for deals like pay for 3 get 4. I have a short list of ones I know are good quality and never for a cheap alternative..as others have said they are your only saviour between the car and the road

KAA

[Tony Prodigy]

12 hours ago, Novicebutnice said:

but then again I have heard that some of the tyre shops share an equal or most of the blame.

They seem to be so eager to make a profit that I have heard of instances where they have suggested a tyre that clearly they have a better mark up on, irrespective of how bad the tyre is.

or so eager for a sale no matter what that they suggest some cheap nasty thing just to make the sale.

I never fall into that trap Stephen. I always know what I want before I get there. Don't worry, they make plenty of money on all tyres regardless of what they sell. Last time I checked, my local Bob Jane owner was driving a new Porsche Cayenne, so he's not exactly crying poor..

[Tony Prodigy]

11 hours ago, campbeam said:

blunten the "hip pocket nerve" such that I will only consider quality brand name tyres that meet my performance requirements. 

 

4 hours ago, KAA said:

I regularly read up on latest tyre deals and crosscheck reviews about ones i feel are suitable for my car and driving style and preferences, I don;t mid paying a small amount more for the better quality brands having had them on my cars for years..

Same here guys. Although my wife drives our Aurion 98% of the time (Her driving style being conservative ) doesn't mean I will compromise on tyre quality. I've been on the same type of Michelin tyres since replacing the original Bridgestone whatever rubbish they were, and am very happy with the ride, noise level, wet handling and wear. I'm on my second set thus far and not due for a little while. 

[Novicebutnice]

13 hours ago, campbeam said:

It takes time and effort to be an informed buyer and to carefully select a reputable seller. I am regularly checking tyre reviews to find the best touring tyre for my particular vehicle. I do maintain a shortlist of preferred tyres. I have been going to the same Bob Jane T-Mart for many years. When I am there for a wheel alignment, I ask a "loaded" question of what tyres they would recommend for my Aurion. It certainly helps because the counter staff member also drives an Aurion and speaks from experience. 

I have also accumulated enough bad experiences to now ignore or blunten the "hip pocket nerve" such that I will only consider quality brand name tyres that meet my performance requirements. 

I made that mistake... once

The tyre brand was reputable, but I mentioned that my driving style was spirited.... and was sold tyres that were at best an "everyday tyre" and were about the same as what came OEM with my last car... even though my budget was quite high (relatively speaking)

[TommyM]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:38 PM, ZZT86 said:

@TommyM  - mate all this talk about your Avalon & no pics - cough up, we want to see this glorious car of yours 😉 Did see the brochure, very nice interior/dash layout that reminds me of olden day Supras. The old Toyota’s had nicer softer leather that’s for sure. Nowadays you gotta fork out big $$ for Toyota/Lexus leather that soft.

The new Avalon in the US is a very smart & beautiful looking car, the chick standing next to it is pretty hot also. The Avalon has cleaner/less complicated sheetmetal & a sharp clean front end design whereas they’ve overdone it with the current Camry, full of odd shapes & creases going in every which direction, imo.

Tom, I’m curious to know what sort of driving you do in your Avalon & how often ? I know the 1MZ-FE well as it was fitted to my old MCV20R Azura. Yes they can get warm but still no cause for alarm especially if its driven properly & within the “normal driving” guidelines. The OCI in those engines is every 15K km. The 7.5K km interval is for “severe operating conditions” & so there’s no requirement to have your car serviced that often.

Now my understanding is that if you constantly do or only drive short distances @ slow speeds with lots of stop/start/idle time & the engine/oil never gets a chance to get to normal hot operating temps for at least 10-15min then your OCI should be 7.5K km minimum.

If you’re like me & let the engine warm up carefully when cold & gives it 15 minutes for the oil to get to normal hot temps then does plenty easy fwy driving for at least another 15 minutes then your OCI should be 15K km.

The leading cause of sludge buildup is due to owner/driver behaviour, attitude & neglect as well as poor/lack of the appropriate maintenance. If you mostly use your car normally with good drive times & distance covered allowing the engine & oil to get normally hot then there’s no reason why the oil won’t last 15K km, especially if it’s a Full Synthetic. Under these normal driving conditions you will find about a 50% depletion of the oils TBN levels by the time 15K km is up & is therefore capable for going even further if desired.

A 5W30 grade oil is just fine for these engines (even the 2GR) as it was designed for, especially in arctic Melbourne. Full Synthetic is obviously the best for its ability to withstand the extremes & it’s ability to “stay in grade”. The lighter grade will give you higher oil pressures, better heat dissipation, protection, performance & fuel economy. The heavier grade will do the opposite. If your engine is partially worn & using some oil &/or you live in a much warmer climate, ie: Brisbane or drive your car harshly then yeah the higher grade will suit.

Having said all that & because I’m a fusspot just like a lot of you guys & I do my own maintenance, I want the engine in my cars to last a very long time which is why I do 7.5K km OCI using a quality Full Synthetic oil. My HachiRoku for example has been using the best 0W20 since early 2013 (TGMO) as it was designed for & yes it is like water. And after many of me own UOA tests have proved it’s a ripper oil, very high performance, stays in grade, recovers quickly, even with the sole use of E85. Oil technology has never been better with great thanks to the environment.

ps: where did you see that the Kluger is designed to use dino 20W50 ? As far as I can tell it’s 5W30, it is a 2GR after all.

Hey the Avalon is a bit of a project at the moment, but don't worry, when everything is done how i want it, i'll be sure to forward through some pics 😉
Oh i agree, the Avalon has alot of Lexus ES300 tech ripped straight out of it. Atleast on the Grande trim level, number one obvious thing is Toyota/Lexus's "Optitron" instrument cluster. And a few other small details. But thick, soft & durable leather you just don't get anymore. It's that thin stuff that feels & looks like vinyl, or half of it synthetic material. Just need to get a few things done 😉

Every engine gets warm, but the rear bank tends to get a little toastier than usual because all the heat off the cats reflects up on the firewall. It's not an issue obviously, doesn't affect air con performance which in old school Toyota form is over poweringly cold 🤣🤣

I'm sticking with how Toyota maintained it, and obviously the other elderly guy knew too about the potential sludging issues (less common on the revised 1MZ) (post 2002). Some were 15k, but every record i have were between 7500k - 8500k. So i'm sticking to it, even though i feel for the poor ***** 🤣
I'm the same, i let the idle come right down from it's "cold start" idle. And wait about 15mins before i push it a bit, if need be, but usually i don't. I can be heavy footed at times, hence why i'm going to a group IV/V full synthetic not a highly refined group III
But most 0w40, 0w30, etc are a group IV/V true synthetic. Hence why i've chosen Mobil 1 0w40. Better suits my driving style periodically. Doesn't burn anymore oil than the owners manual states, 0.5L every 1500km or whatever they have stated, which is normal operation. It's alot less than plenty other cars i see 🤣

[TommyM]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:38 PM, ZZT86 said:

@TommyM  - mate all this talk about your Avalon & no pics - cough up, we want to see this glorious car of yours 😉 Did see the brochure, very nice interior/dash layout that reminds me of olden day Supras. The old Toyota’s had nicer softer leather that’s for sure. Nowadays you gotta fork out big $$ for Toyota/Lexus leather that soft.

The new Avalon in the US is a very smart & beautiful looking car, the chick standing next to it is pretty hot also. The Avalon has cleaner/less complicated sheetmetal & a sharp clean front end design whereas they’ve overdone it with the current Camry, full of odd shapes & creases going in every which direction, imo.

Tom, I’m curious to know what sort of driving you do in your Avalon & how often ? I know the 1MZ-FE well as it was fitted to my old MCV20R Azura. Yes they can get warm but still no cause for alarm especially if its driven properly & within the “normal driving” guidelines. The OCI in those engines is every 15K km. The 7.5K km interval is for “severe operating conditions” & so there’s no requirement to have your car serviced that often.

Now my understanding is that if you constantly do or only drive short distances @ slow speeds with lots of stop/start/idle time & the engine/oil never gets a chance to get to normal hot operating temps for at least 10-15min then your OCI should be 7.5K km minimum.

If you’re like me & let the engine warm up carefully when cold & gives it 15 minutes for the oil to get to normal hot temps then does plenty easy fwy driving for at least another 15 minutes then your OCI should be 15K km.

The leading cause of sludge buildup is due to owner/driver behaviour, attitude & neglect as well as poor/lack of the appropriate maintenance. If you mostly use your car normally with good drive times & distance covered allowing the engine & oil to get normally hot then there’s no reason why the oil won’t last 15K km, especially if it’s a Full Synthetic. Under these normal driving conditions you will find about a 50% depletion of the oils TBN levels by the time 15K km is up & is therefore capable for going even further if desired.

A 5W30 grade oil is just fine for these engines (even the 2GR) as it was designed for, especially in arctic Melbourne. Full Synthetic is obviously the best for its ability to withstand the extremes & it’s ability to “stay in grade”. The lighter grade will give you higher oil pressures, better heat dissipation, protection, performance & fuel economy. The heavier grade will do the opposite. If your engine is partially worn & using some oil &/or you live in a much warmer climate, ie: Brisbane or drive your car harshly then yeah the higher grade will suit.

Having said all that & because I’m a fusspot just like a lot of you guys & I do my own maintenance, I want the engine in my cars to last a very long time which is why I do 7.5K km OCI using a quality Full Synthetic oil. My HachiRoku for example has been using the best 0W20 since early 2013 (TGMO) as it was designed for & yes it is like water. And after many of me own UOA tests have proved it’s a ripper oil, very high performance, stays in grade, recovers quickly, even with the sole use of E85. Oil technology has never been better with great thanks to the environment.

ps: where did you see that the Kluger is designed to use dino 20W50 ? As far as I can tell it’s 5W30, it is a 2GR after all.

By the book they were designed for 5w30 (preferred), 10w30, 15w40 or 20w50

But that was back in 2005

Since then there's better alternatively 

5w40, 10w50, 0w40, 0w30, etc etc

I'm not running a 50 weight, i want a 40 weight that's closer to a 30 weight which the Mobil 1 0w40 is. Hence why i chose it. I've had plenty sucess with this oil, so i'm using it. Car doesn't leak any fluids at all, had the engine completely resealed as a preventative (rocker cover gaskets, crank seals, cam seals, etc)

[TommyM]

18 hours ago, Novicebutnice said:

That's probably the number one thing that makes me angry about some car owners.

They can't seem to comprehend that the black round things connect their car to the road, but then again I have heard that some of the tyre shops share an equal or most of the blame.

They seem to be so eager to make a profit that I have heard of instances where they have suggested a tyre that clearly they have a better mark up on, irrespective of how bad the tyre is.

or so eager for a sale no matter what that they suggest some cheap nasty thing just to make the sale.

I honestly think that all tyres need to be regularly randomly (not supplied by the manufacturers) tested to ensure that they are safe to be sold, and of course publish the results on an easy to access website 

Couldn't agree more, no excuse why people can't afford quality tyres if they've spent 50k+ on a new SUV 🤣

I see older Falcons, Commodores, Camrys, etc with higher quality tyres than i do newer cars (the old timers didn't skimp out), this excludes the skid pig editions which i have no sympathy for lol, the rare responsible driver that is 🤣

[campbeam]

7 hours ago, TommyM said:

no excuse why people can't afford quality tyres if they've spent 50k+ on a new SUV

It is because they have bought a new vehicle [most likely financed] that they cannot afford to service. Too busy keeping up appearances and too much household debt.

[TommyM]

I actually have a completely stupid question to ask. Am i the only one who thinks it's odd that the Camry of the same era had the same dual cooling fans (V6) and seperate condenser fan mounted up front, where as the Avalon just had twin electric fans ?

I noticed it the other day now i think about it. 

Any light would be appreciated. 

 

MCX10R (Avalon) twin electric, but no condenser fan ?, could be the blade design is higher volume thus not needing a 3rd ?.

XV20 (Camry 4cyl/V6) twin electric & third seperate condenser fan.

XV30 (Camry 4cyl/V6) twin electric ?, not sure if they retained the third condenser fan.