LSD for 2ZZ C64 Transmission

[doriae86]

adding up - lol man, sorta regreting atm to be honest ;)

Haha that was how I felt too. I got the LSD first and then realized that it wasn't the end of the shopping list. I think you got your LSD from ebay right?

yeah i did, epic impulse buy after i did a track night a couple of nights before and found the car spinning the inside wheel hard - even with r comps!

the lsd + fitment kit should arrive this week. then ill save up for a clutch and put the feelers out for someone to install . . .

[doublezero]

I bought arp flywheel bolts and energy motor mount inserts to put in with the install as well. Thought I might as well put them in. I hate how the corolla handles when I accelerate with the wheels turned. Whoever puts their LSD in can confirm the whole procedure ;D

[and1]

Would love to invest in an lsd too but its way out of my budget though :(

As to the ARP fly bolts, could you just get new toyota bolts with a lightened fly?

My flys on the way to my house and I'm now looking at clutches. Got my eye on a particular one from the US :D .

[doublezero]

Would love to invest in an lsd too but its way out of my budget though :(

As to the ARP fly bolts, could you just get new toyota bolts with a lightened fly?

My flys on the way to my house and I'm now looking at clutches. Got my eye on a particular one from the US :D .

Yeah you can. The toyota bolts are not reusable so once you take them out they are pretty much gone. I don't think that I would be taking out the flywheel out after changing it anyway so Toyota ones should be fine. I just got ARP ones because my friend told me its better to get them.

Which clutch kit are you looking at?

Edited June 16, 2009 by doublezero

[and1]

Would love to invest in an lsd too but its way out of my budget though :(

As to the ARP fly bolts, could you just get new toyota bolts with a lightened fly?

My flys on the way to my house and I'm now looking at clutches. Got my eye on a particular one from the US :D .

Yeah you can. The toyota bolts are not reusable so once you take them out they are pretty much gone. I don't think that I would be taking out the flywheel out after changing it anyway so Toyota ones should be fine. I just got ARP ones because my friend kept nagging me that he had them.

Which clutch kit are you looking at?

The F1 Racing stage 2 clutch. I'm teaming it with the MWR ultralight chromoly fly. Haven't heard much negatives about the f1 over in the US and its a pretty cheap kit.

[doriae86]

LSD kit has arrived, still waiting the install kit from MWR

Keen to get it installed though at the same time, not keen to pay for it

Would love to get TRD flywheel, research indicates they arnt so ridiculously light – one would assume therefore it might be a suitable compromise for my desire to be a race car driver and my partners need to drive to the shops

[Guni]

Would love to get TRD flywheel, research indicates they arnt so ridiculously light

That would be true. Further to that, was told by a member here that the revs drop faster but doesn't go up faster.

He reckons it was a waste of money really but if you insists, get billet or chromely was informed.

[doriae86]

thanks guni, appreciate the heads up. Idont need much convincing to stay stock. saves $800 :)

hows your lsd project coming along ?

[doriae86]

few pics of my parcel that arrived the other day.

looks pretty good, though io do have a question for the experts . . .

helical type diffs, are they the same as a traditional lsd in when a car is jacked up and the wheels are rotated they will spin the tyres in the same direction?

i have attempted to emulate this with the diff i received by inserting my thumbs in the location where the drive shafts go and rotating which results in the unladen shaft input spinning in the oppisite direction.

attempting to hold one and spin the other creates a locking effect, however thats pretty unremarkable in the sense that my thumds dont have as much torque as my 2zz :)

heres some pics of the diff, any1 able to assist in confirming that it is indeed an lsd ? cbf paying ot install another open centre :)!

[CHA54]

that's helical, you can see the helical gears ;)

[doriae86]

lol ok :/

newb question, sorry guys !

[Guni]

thanks guni, appreciate the heads up. Idont need much convincing to stay stock. saves $800 :)

hows your lsd project coming along ?

No worries. Going stock are excatly my plan in terms of flywheel as I don't think revs going up will help much in a stock 1.8 NA form unless someone can tell me otherwise.

Had plans drawn up ready to go. Just need to implement it. Unfortunately, had a bit of a hiccup in terms of funds so project is delayed by about a month or 2.

Looking around late July or early August for completion. Else, would have been late this month.

[Guni]

lol ok :/

newb question, sorry guys !

I would have asked excatly the same thing ;)

[bradsm87]

helical type diffs, are they the same as a traditional lsd in when a car is jacked up and the wheels are rotated they will spin the tyres in the same direction?

Nope. What you're experiencing is normal. there needs to be SOME grip with the spinning wheel for the LSD to have effect. PPl don't use them in hardcore race cars because as soon as U lift a wheel, they're effectively an open centre. U won't have that problem. Helicals are the best street LSD's HANDS DOWN!

[doriae86]

thanks brad, appreciate your input. Great to have such knowledge on the forums

[Guni]

While you got ur gearbox open, best to replace any worn bearings and syncros as well. Should be about 7 altogether including the reverse gear

[SuperDave]

Theres a bit of labour involved in dismantling the cluster to do the synchros. If you do have the money definitely do 2nd and 3rd synchros as they cop a pounding.

[Guni]

I got quoted about $1500 max for labour ONLY which includes gearbox rebuilt (replacing sh!t that needs replacing), LSD install and Clutch/Flywheel replacement.

[Blind Kid Seeks]

off topic... but can anyone explain to me how Torsen LSD works?

[Guni]

off topic... but can anyone explain to me how Torsen LSD works?

A Torsen ("TORque SENsing") also known as Helical LSD which is a limited-slip differential that isn't technically a limited slip differential. It's to call it just a Torsen differential or a helical differential.

Torsen differentials improve your car's ability to turn. With an open differential, a car will deliver power to the wheel that has the easiest time of it - this means the wheel with the least grip. You might assume this means when one wheel is in mud or sand while the other on pavement, but this also occurs in turns. The inside wheel is always naturally easier to spin.

However, when you're turning, it's best to have the force on the outside wheel. The outside wheel has leverage and it will "push" the weight of the car in the direction it's facing. The inside wheel has less grip (because the car tilts and puts its weight on the outside wheel), and can only pull, with far less leverage. This results in drastically reduced high-power or sudden turning capability, especially in front-wheel drive vehicles, though rear-wheel drive suffers from an open differential as well.

A normal limited slip would simply activate whenever one wheel is spinning slower than the other. Most differentials of this type are VLSDs - Viscous Limited Slip Differentials. They have two plates, each connected to a wheel, narrowly separated by a thick oil. As one wheel spins faster, one of the plates spins and the heat it generates causes friction, which "grabs" the other plate and forces it to spin at approximately the same speed. VLSDs are very robust and almost maintenance-free, but aren't the best performers (though the difference between even an abused VLSD and an open differential is remarkable.)

There are also mechanical ("clutch pack") differentials which use a series of clutches in place of the plates and oil, to force the transmission to distribute torque to the wheels more equally. Clutch packs are great performers, but need to be rebuilt, are somewhat more expensive and their engagement can be quite harsh. Depending on the settings (1-way, 1.5-way, 2-way, as well as the "hardness" of the reaction), the clutch pack may even make the car more difficult to drive. A very hard 2-way can make regular turns you'd coast through be laborious, since both wheels will want to spin at the same speed. It's almost like driving with a welded differential. (in case you haven't realized, the whole point of a differential is to allow different speeds for the wheels, so that turning is possible, since the outside wheel always needs to move more quickly.)

A Torsen differential isn't a real limited slip because if you place one wheel on slick ice and the other on dry pavement, the one on ice will still spin itself silly. The torsen is a gear-based differential, the gears are cut in a helical fashion (at angles). When a car turns, the gears press against each other and slide into place, distributing the torque in the best way possible for the turn. This makes it particularly good for front-wheel drive cars, which have a tendency to spin the inside wheel too much and "understeer". A Torsen won't get rid of understeer, but it will make turns much sharper.

[doublezero]

OK guys, I finally got my car back today with my LSD, Flywheel, Clutch and engine mount inserts installed. There was a 2 week delay because they broke my 6th gear and had to wait for it to arrive from Japan. So it is actually quite difficulty for me to say what is different but I will take it out for a more serious run. When I come back I will writing a detailed experience for everyone here.

[doublezero]

The LSD works really well. I made a couple of turns at a 90 degree turn and I can feel the outside wheel increasing speed. The car actually grips! The toyota lsd seems to be very adequate and is not overly difficult to control. Some of my friends mechanical LSD require them to counter steer when their LSD starts working but not the toyota one. When the LSD starts working I can actually feel the clicking of the gears which is common to all lsd.

I would have to say that the LSD is really worth the money. Before I had the LSD I would usually spin the inside wheel even when entering main streets on T-intersection since the 2zz-ge does pack some power and the car actually skips and loses traction. With the LSD now, the car doesn't skip on its tires and it actually follows the line that you direct it to. It feels like a go cart! Imagine driving 60 on the streets and actually making a 90degree turn at 60kmph with the car still flat with no slipping. Can't feel the LSD when driving straight or turning at low speed. I think this mod is suited for those going for track days as it is quite stupid for daily drivers to make sharp turns at high speeds (dangerous to pedestrians).

With the flywheel, I got the Jun one which is not overly light like the MWR one. Speed really picks up very smoothly and driving is not difficult at all, unlike the experience of those using the fidanza one. I usually change gears when it revs to 3k but with the flywheel I find myself shifting at 4k. So at the same time that I usually change gears, the rev has got an extra 1k. It was extremely easy for the car to hit 100kmph with the flywheel and there is no loss of torque. Lift did feel slightly smoother.

The Xtreme clutch felt quite light and bit on very nicely. I like it!

I used mt90 redline oil for my gearbox and the notchiness has just about disappeared. It is so smooth that it feels like silk. I recommend it to everyone. I sometimes hit the gap between the gears (like 1st and 3rd) but the gearbox feels so smooth now when it enters into the gear.

The engine mount inserts is the only mod to date that I have not enjoyed. My stomach feels like its being turned upside (like after riding the roller coaster) as I am typing this out. The dash vibrates so much and the steering wheel does it as well. Try turning on your engine and open the driver's sides door and see if the door vibrates. With the engine mount inserts they actually vibrate like crazy. The vibration seems to be more unbearable when the car is idling and the vibration is more bearable when the car is moving. Good points about the inserts is that the car seems to be more responsive so when you step on the accelerator the car pulls straightaway. So if you have passengers that get car sick quite easily then you might want to avoid this mod or be very gentle with your aceleration. When releasing the acelerator there seems to be no ***** at all which is very good but the ***** when downshifting is very apparent.

Track day is coming up for me so I will post up how it goes.

[Guni]

That is quite comprehensive.

Love your work mate!

[terryo]

I dont want to rain on your work, but be aware the Toyota factory helical LSD's are very prone to wearing the case around the ends of the helical gears then they dont work any more. I have replaced several of them in non-turbo MR2's & Beams engined Celicas, and RAV's, with relatively low KM's on them (diff is internally the same design). If you start hearing a tick-tick noise on hard turns, this is often the start of problems.

[DANZZT231]

So would regular tranny oil change be enough to keep the toyota helical running happy for a long time?